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Trump Supporters Starting To Lose Faith?

Donald Trump Shrug

At least some Trump voters seem to already be concerned with the direction that Donald Trump’s Presidency has taken over the past month:

Tom Godat, a union electrician who has always voted for Democrats, cast his ballot for Donald Trump last year as “the lesser of two evils” compared to Hillary Clinton.

He’s already a little embarrassed about it.

There’s a lot that Godat likes about President Trump, especially his pledge to make the country great again by ignoring lobbyists, challenging both political parties and increasing the number of good-paying jobs.

But Godat was surprised by the utter chaos that came with the president’s first month. He said it often felt like Trump and his staff were impulsively firing off executive orders instead of really thinking things through.

“I didn’t think he would come in blazing like he has,” said Godat, 39, who has three kids and works at the same aluminum rolling plant where his father worked. “It seems almost like a dictatorship at times. He’s got a lot of controversial stuff going on and rather than thinking it through, I’m afraid that he’s jumping into the frying pan with both feet.”

Of the six swing states that were key to Trump’s unexpected win in November, his margin of victory was the highest in Iowa, where he beat Clinton by 9 percentage points. Yet at the dawn of his presidency, only 42 percent of Iowans approve of the job that he’s doing and 49 percent disapprove, according to a Des Moines Register/Mediacom Iowa Poll this month.

That support varies across the state: Here in eastern Iowa, it’s in the low 40s. It’s highest in northwest Iowa, where 55 percent of Iowans approve of the president’s performance thus far, and it’s lowest in the southeast corner of the state and the Des Moines area, where only 31 percent of Iowans approve, according to the poll.

(…)

While Iowa is still home to many strong supporters who say it’s too early to judge him, there are others who say they voted for Trump simply because he wasn’t Clinton. Many Iowans worry Trump might cut support for wind-energy and ethanol programs; that his trade policies could hurt farms that export their crops; that mass deportations would empty the state’s factories and meat-packing plants; and that a repeal of the Affordable Care Act would yank health insurance away from thousands. While the hyper-simplicity of Trump’s campaign promises helped him win over voters, they are no match for the hyper-complexity of Iowa’s economy and values.

As the temperature hit 73 degrees last Wednesday afternoon, Godat took his two sons — ages 3 and 15 — to a playground near the Mississippi. He has lived for most of his life in Clinton, a town of nearly 27,000 that is home to a major corn-processing plant and other manufacturers.

Hillary Clinton won the city by more than 2,000 votes — but Trump won Clinton County, which was one of more than 25 counties in eastern Iowa that flipped from voting for Barack Obama in 2012 to Trump in 2016. That shift here and in other Midwestern states was largely driven by white working-class voters like Godat.

Godat commutes more than 30 miles south to Bettendorf, where he gets paid a base wage of $34 per hour to help prepare aluminum used for airplanes and cars. There’s a shortage of trained electricians, and last year Godat said he worked 600 overtime hours, bringing his total pay to about $110,000. His wife provides in-home care for the elderly.

Godat hopes his son will get an apprenticeship at the plant after high school. He is confident that his employer won’t lay off workers or shut down the plant because it has invested hundreds of millions of dollars in Iowa and does specialized work that would be difficult to move. He hopes Trump can create more jobs like his across the country.

And that’s why he wishes he could tell the president: “Focus on us, on our country, on our issues here.”

Much more at the link from the reporters’ travels across Iowa. To summarize what they found, it seems clear that, at least in the Hawkeye State, Trump supporters are waiting to see if he’ll deliver on the promises he made during the campaign, and many of them are concerned that he may actually follow through on some of his more controversial positions. On international trade, for example, Iowa’s farming sector is one example of an industry that has benefited greatly from free trade agreements such as NAFTA that have opened up international markets to American agricultural exports. Because of this, the news that Trump went through with his pledge to withdraw the United States from the Trans-Pacific Partnership and renegotiate NAFTA has many of these farmers concerned about the potential losses they could experience if Trump’s policies, combined with the recent announcement from House Republicans about implementing a Border Adjustment Tax that would add a tax to all products entering the United States and risk retaliation abroad against American goods. Additionally, several Trump supporters seem to be concerned that the first month’s chaos may be an indication of things to come, and that the President may not be able to deliver on much of anything that they heard from him when he was running for office.

All of this comes at the same time that polling continues to show Trump with the lowest job approval of any incoming President. The new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll is the most recent indication of the potential problems that the Administration faces going forward:

President Donald Trump’s job approval rating stands at just 44 percent — a record low for a newly inaugurated commander-in-chief — and half of Americans say that his early challenges suggest unique and systemic problems with his administration, according to a new poll from NBC News and the Wall Street Journal.

In the poll, conducted February 18-22, 48 percent of Americans said they disapprove of Trump’s performance as president and 32 percent said that his first month in office demonstrates that he is not up to the job. Asked about early challenges in the first month of his presidency, 52 percent called the issues “real problems” that are specific to his administration, while 43 percent of Americans attributed them to typical “growing pains” for any new president.

The new rating comes two days before Trump is set to address a joint session of Congress, a State of the Union-style speech in which new presidents typically lay out their vision for the country.

But Trump begins his tenure in a dramatically less popular position than any of his predecessors. He is the only president in the history of modern polling to begin his first term with a net negative approval rating — and it’s not close. Compared to Trump’s net negative rating of -4 percent, Barack Obama began his presidency with a net positive 34 percent; George W. Bush and Bill Clinton enjoyed a similar advantage, and George H.W. Bush’s score of popular goodwill pushed even higher to a net positive of 45 percent.

Trump also continues to register particularly dismal ratings when it comes to his temperament, with just 18 percent giving his demeanor a thumbs up compared to 55 percent who rank it as poor.

But despite his historically underwater public popularity, the survey also shows that his support from Republicans remains robust and that the public’s overall views of him are relatively stable. He has maintained the loyalty of his party both on his policy proposals and on his ongoing warfare with the mainstream media, and a majority of Americans believe that he will follow through on his promises of change.

His personal favorability rating – 43 percent positive and 47 percent negative – is stable compared to previous polls, and a majority of Americans — 57 percent — said that he is performing about how they expected him to in the White House. That’s compared to 19 percent who said he is doing better than they expected and 24 percent who said he is doing worse.

In the RealCleaerPolitics average, Trump remains under water with a 43.6% approval rate and a 50.3% disapproval rate. Moreover, as the chart shows, the gap between the two numbers has been growing steadily in the month since he took office:

Trump Job Approval RCP 22716

Obviously, one month into a Presidency is very early to judge how things are going, but so far at least things are clearly not going well. As I’ve noted before, it’s typically been the case that the beginning of a new Presidency is when a President’s job approval numbers are the highest, largely because Americans generally like to be optimistic and hopeful about the future and want to hope that the new President will do a good job. Additionally, the tasks that a President typically completes in their first month or so in office are fairly routine matters that most Administrations manage to get done correctly even if they do make some mistakes further down the road. The Trump Administration, though, has been a virtual comedy of errors since its first weekend in office and that seems only likely to continue given that the personnel responsible for what has transpired are unlikely to depart anytime soon. Indeed, one can easily foresee things getting worse before they get better.

Taken together, what these two news items tell us is that Trump has entered office in a tenuous position. He failed to rally the nation behind him upon entering office, and his actions since then have only succeeded in further polarizing the political situation to the point where it’s unlikely that the people who didn’t support him last November are going to be persuaded by his actions at any point in the near future. Additionally, as the Post’s reporters’ journey across Iowa shows, the people who supported Trump in the election are watching and wondering exactly if or when he’s going to deliver on the promised jobs and economic growth that were the main reason they supported him to begin with. If that doesn’t happen, and if the Administration continues to mishandle its initial months in office as badly as it has so far, then it could find that even his base supporters are going to start giving up on him.

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About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May, 2010 and also writes at Below The Beltway. Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. CSK says:

    The dedicated Trumpkins–and I find it impossible to tell exactly how many of them exist–won’t ever, ever give up on Trump, no matter how disastrous his tenure, because they’ve invested far too much emotionally to do so. And they’ve hit on the perfect device to allow them to deny reality: simply claim that any news article critical of Trump is “fake news.”

    As for the people who voted for Trump solely because he wasn’t Hillary Clinton, observation tells me that they had no expectations of him to be thwarted.

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  2. Kylopod says:

    But Godat was surprised by the utter chaos that came with the president’s first month.

    Then he’s a dumb sucker. Sorry. Everything about Trump’s first month has been 100% predictable based on how he ran his campaign. I have literally zero sympathy for anyone who’s having buyer’s remorse now. These might as well be the folks surprised at the lack of returns from the Nigerian Prince.

    One thing we can count on in the next four years is that there are going to be innumerable times we can say “We told you so.”

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  3. KM says:

    The people who “gave him a chance” did so with the exception of getting what they wanted or at the very least, not getting epically screwed. If they don’t get it, they’re going to be pretty pissed. If life gets noticeably worse, not only will they switch back to Dem, they may take some of their neighbors with them.

    Frankly, if Trump were a new hire on probationary period, his ass would have been grass weeks ago. The longer this goes on and the more he tries to blameshift, its going to become apparent to even the firmest head-in-the-sand fence-sitters he’s not what he sold himself as. He’s not the Master Negotiator. He’s not the Great Businessman. He’s not the Alpha Boss. He can’t control his own house, let alone the media or Congress. He was hired under false pretenses and voters aren’t likely to forgive that.

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  4. al-Alameda says:

    Nobody is giving up just yet. Republicans now have the votes, and sufficient control of the rules of the road, to restore America to 1928 (or whatever year they deem to be especially luminous and wonderful) and until that mission is accomplished Trump voters and supporters are going nowhere.

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  5. KM says:

    @Kylopod:

    I have literally zero sympathy for anyone who’s having buyer’s remorse now. These might as well be the folks surprised at the lack of returns from the Nigerian Prince.

    Shssh! We’re not supposed to point that out – it’s elitist and condescending and hurts their feelings. We’re supposed to keep quiet while they slink back and pretend there wasn’t a massive brain fart the whole planet can smell. If we damage their egos more by pointing out this is their fault and they were warned, they’ll vote for a horrible Republican again just to spite us know-it-alls.

    …. I wish to god what I typed was just sarcasm but have the horrible feeling it ‘s prophecy. *knock on wood*

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  6. Ryan says:

    I love these invented polls and made up news stories. These are the same journalists and pollsters who told us he would lose in a landslide. I wish they would stop inventing crap already. I already feel safer and more protected by what President Trump has managed to accomplish in just his first month. I already have a better outlook on my children’s future and that of our country going forward. You journalists have completely abused the special rights given to you, and, in doing so, have let down our country and the world as a whole. You should all feel ashamed and I hope that one day you all pay for it. The blame for the hatred, racial divides, violence and destruction we have seen is solely on your heads for spreading lies.

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  7. Ryan says:

    @KM: I’m sorry your candidate lost. Get over it.

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  8. Kylopod says:

    @Ryan: Smacks of Poe’s Law, no?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  9. grumpy realist says:

    @Ryan:( If everyone wants to see the sort of person who would sign up for Trump University, look no further….)

    Ok, dude: explain to us exactly WHY “I already feel safer and more protected by what President Trump has managed to accomplish in just his first month. I already have a better outlook on my children’s future and that of our country going forward. ” Explain how pissing off countries like Mexico, India, and England are good for us. Explain how Trump’s brand of chaotic management means he’s going to react well when the inevitable disaster hits the fan. Explain how Trump’s pandering to the “alternative facts” crowd doesn’t mean that Trump will lie to you with government statistics or tell you what you want to hear, as opposed to reality.

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  10. Mikey says:

    @Ryan: There was a time I’d have crafted a detailed response to bullshit like this, but lately I just yawn.

    *yawn*

    Have a nice day.

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  11. teve tory says:

    @Kylopod: I know of no way to distinguish “faking it” from “just really dumb”. Except that ‘ryan’s not making the usual spelling and grammar mistakes one normally associates with Trumpers.

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  12. Ryan says:

    @Kylopod: Let’s talk about these “I told you so’s.”
    I still get such a kick out of the crybaby crap you people are pushing. Makes my day so much better. Let’s hear it.

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  13. Jake says:
  14. Kylopod says:

    @teve tory:

    I know of no way to distinguish “faking it” from “just really dumb”

    Ryan’s opening sentence, “I love these invented polls and made up news stories,” just sounded to me sort of parody-ish, though I’m not quite sure why. You get a feel for these things from years spent perusing Internet forums. The only problem is (1) The points Ryan makes are indistinguishable from points I’ve been hearing incessantly from true-blue Trumpkins (2) It isn’t especially funny.

    One of the most bizarre aspects of Trump’s rise is how parody-proof he actually is. Satire depends on exaggeration, yet there’s scarcely anything the parodists can come up with that’s appreciably more ridiculous than something the real man has said or done. I mean, I love Alec Baldwin and his brilliant Trump impersonation, but…. the best SNL could come up with for his “Nobody has more respect for women than I do” was to have Baldwin-Trump speak the line verbatim and then show the entire planet laughing. That’s not satire, it’s stenography.

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  15. KM says:

    @Ryan:
    You say you have kids. Hope you like paying more in taxes while not getting that childcare subsidy rich families do. After all, you need to feel safer and they need their au pairs paid for – it works out, right?

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  16. mannning says:

    So far, I see three glaring modes of operation: 1) Trump misusing the language, attacking the media, using Twitter to excess and getting flamed for it: 2) Trump wielding the pen to tear asunder the Obama network of regulations and EOs; and 3) Trump telling us how good it’s going to be when he really hits his stride with his SCOTUS nomination, repeal/replace of Obamacare, and tax revisions. It appears that critics are hung up on (1), while the Repubs are moving to enact new healthcare legislation and Trump is steadily writing new EOs to counter Obama’s versions. zhis pen will win, I think.

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  17. Jake says:

    Ha ha you guys talking about polls. Your polls were wrong on the election by a longs hot, so now you are right.

    will you ever learn

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  18. KM says:

    @teve tory:
    Not dumb – tribal. He feels “safer” with all the chaos because one of his sits behind the Resolute desk. He “looks forward to the future” despite the very real implications a trade war and faltering alliances would have on his lifestyle because Trump’s in his party.

    These people exist and will continue to be happy…. right up until they are not. It only need to cross the line for them and Trump’s famous for crossing lines left and right.

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  19. SenyorDave says:

    President Trump said Monday that “nobody knew that healthcare could be so complicated,” as Republicans have been slow to unite around a replacement plan for ObamaCare.

    Wow, health care policy is hard, Trump won’t be able to fulfill these promises:

    The plan, he said, would include “lower numbers, much lower deductibles,” without elaborating. “We’re going to have insurance for everybody,” Trump said. “There was a philosophy in some circles that if you can’t pay for it, you don’t get it. That’s not going to happen with us.”

    At the heart of it, he really is just a plain old dumbass. An ignorant buffoon who made up a bunch of unworkable promises that people bought into.

    Sure, Trump was going to be for the average person. Because everything about Trump screams that he cares about the common person..

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  20. Kylopod says:

    @Jake:

    Ha ha you guys talking about polls. Your polls were wrong on the election by a longs hot, so now you are right.

    The RCP average (which Doug cites above) was 1.1% off on Election Night. Which is to say, the polls showed Hillary winning the popular vote, and she did win the popular vote, albeit by a slightly narrower margin than the polls suggested. Some of the state polls were worse than that, but that’s largely because places like Wisconsin weren’t doing much polling in the final weeks of the campaign. None of this provides a good reason for simply ignoring polls you don’t like.

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  21. Davebo says:

    ‘I never thought leopards would eat MY face,’ sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People’s Faces Party.

    Classic Tweet

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  22. Ryan says:

    @KM: You people are so desperate to find anything. It is and has been the funniest thing I have seen. I think these made up articles and polls make your day better in the same way that your whining about all of it makes me feel better, lol.

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  23. Jake says:

    @Kylopod:

    Loser

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  24. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @Ryan:

    I already feel safer and more protected by what President Trump has managed to accomplish in just his first month. I already have a better outlook on my children’s future and that of our country going forward.

    You are likely a straight white male…so yeah you’re safe. If you were of color, or jewish, or muslim, or a woman, or gay…nope. If you are any of those people then you are less free and less safe.
    Trump really hasn’t accomplished anything. A lot of bluster and meaningless EO’s. He passed a law that made it easier for oil companies to hide bribes. Otherwise…bubkis.
    Your children will live in a far more polluted world, a far more dangerous world, and a less free world because of who you voted for. Glad you feel good about that.

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  25. teve tory says:

    @teve tory:
    Not dumb – tribal

    Supporting George W. Bush is tribal. Supporting donald trump means you can probably be diagnosed as mentally retarded in most states.

    One of the most bizarre aspects of Trump’s rise is how parody-proof he actually is. Satire depends on exaggeration, yet there’s scarcely anything the parodists can come up with that’s appreciably more ridiculous than something the real man has said or done. I mean, I love Alec Baldwin and his brilliant Trump impersonation, but…. the best SNL could come up with for his “Nobody has more respect for women than I do” was to have Baldwin-Trump speak the line verbatim and then show the entire planet laughing. That’s not satire, it’s stenography.

    Trump literally just said “Nobody knew that health care could be so complicated.” You can’t parody that shit. There’s no way to exaggerate the idiocy. The Stupid Knob has been turned all the way clockwise.

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  26. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @Ryan:

    These are the same journalists and pollsters who told us he would lose in a landslide.

    Actually they said he would lose by 3.2% (hardly a landslide). He lost by 2.1%. Well within any reasonable margin of error.
    You’re one of those alternative facts guys, eh?

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  27. Pch101 says:

    Coming in second place is the new mandate.

    Conservatives don’t care how they get power, just as long as they get it. Just another reason why the Republican party needs to be destroyed before it can be saved.

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  28. Franklin says:

    @Jake: When results fall within the margin of error of a poll, I wouldn’t call that poll “wrong”. If you listened to Nate Silver (and nobody should listen to any other prognosticator), Trump had like a 31% of winning going into the election. Guess what – that made it well within the realm of possibility that Trump would be President.

    Sorry if you’re bad at math and statistics.

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  29. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    Trump:

    “…Nobody knew that health care could be so complicated…I have to tell you, it’s an unbelievably complex subject…”

    What a fvcking idiot.
    You would have to be a complete retard to have voted for this man.

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  30. Franklin says:

    @Kylopod:

    Then he’s a dumb sucker. Sorry. Everything about Trump’s first month has been 100% predictable based on how he ran his campaign.

    Actually I have some sympathy. Not everybody pays that much attention, and in fact smart people tend to tune out election nonsense. You and I can separate most of the wheat from the chaff, but some busy people just don’t make the time to do so.

    You could, of course, argue that it was his job to pay attention if he was intending to vote. And you would be right. But some of the things that Godak was hoping for were laudable if not starry-eyed goals.

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  31. Argon says:

    Certainly those who assumed (against reason) that Trump would keep the ACA intact or replace it with something better are having second thoughts.

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  32. Scott says:

    @SenyorDave:

    President Trump said Monday that “nobody knew that healthcare could be so complicated,” as Republicans have been slow to unite around a replacement plan for ObamaCare.

    Of course, he didn’t know it would be so complicated. He never had to deal with it. He never had to spend time on the phone with an insurance company. He never had to shop for an insurance plan. He never had to worry about lifetime caps, or preexisting conditions, etc. He is clueless. Such is the life of someone born to wealth. They are sheltered from real life.

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  33. Mikey says:

    Now our troops have a Commander-in-Chief who believes they aren’t giving their full measure.

    Trump laments that American soldiers no longer ‘fight to win’

    That’s rich coming from Five-Deferment Donald.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  34. Jake says:

    Going to be a long 8 yrs for you posters

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  35. David M says:

    @Ryan:

    I already feel safer and more protected by what President Trump has managed to accomplish in just his first month. I already have a better outlook on my children’s future and that of our country going forward.

    What has Trump actually done that would make you think this?

    @mannning:

    Why are you OK with the Executive Orders from Trump, but not Obama?

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  36. grumpy realist says:

    @Jake: If the American populace is really that stupid to elect The Donald for another term, it deserves everything that will be landing on it.

    Gullible idiots don’t deserve sympathy, especially after there’s a huge amount of evidence out there that the savior you follow is a con man.

    New Yorkers knew this. Why do you think Trump didn’t take NYC? They knew he was nothing more than a carnival barker with a megaphone full of promises and delivering nothing. Why do you think no one in the financial markets lends to him any more?

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  37. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @Jake:

    Going to be a long 8 yrs for you posters

    I’m willing to bet he doesn’t make it four years.
    There are hundreds of Woodward and Bernstein wannabe’s who have caught the scent of blood in the water.
    Your con-man hero is dirty as dirty gets…it’s just a matter of time.
    If that doesn’t get him…his incompetence will. And with an approval rating that is dropping like a stone…Congressional Republicans will throw him under the bus in a hurry.

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  38. Ryan says:

    @KM: You people are so desperate to find anything. It is and has been the funniest thing I have seen. I think these made up articles and polls make your day better in the same way that your whining about all of it makes me feel better, lol.@grumpy realist: What would you like to talk about? Fake claims of racism that have caused a terrible divide in this country? That American Citizens are being victimized in violent acts fueled by hatred for things that don’t actually exist? The terrible thought of “trade wars” that are aimed at restoring the manufacturing sector to our economy? After all, manufacturing is of no importance as the base of an economy. Of course, we will continue to prosper if we are all in the service industry. I guess you’d like to explain how creating a better business climate so that companies not only come back and invest via job growth and innovation, but to bring back the $2 trillion plus that has been sitting in foreign accounts to avoid paying U.S. business taxes. What about the bathroom rules that were reversed? I guess those of you who disagree do not have a 12 year old daughter who may fall victim to a young boy who wants to take advantage of the rule. I understand that it is created to stop hazing, and no child should be hazed, but to open up my children to potential abuses of the rule are not right either. I could understand if, on a case by case basis, that children who are in danger of ridicule or hazing by fellow students may be allowed to use a faculty bathroom. Permission could be granted quietly and without incident. No one would have to know, and don’t you think that a young boy using the girl’s bathroom would cause more hazing? It works both ways you know. There are better ways to address this issue than by mandating every school in the nation to have unisex bathrooms. Maybe you’d like to talk about illegal immigration to begin with. I happen to live in a “sanctuary city,” and the vast majority of illegal immigrants are wonderful people, but there is a criminal element. I have witnessed arraignment hearings where police have begged the judge not to set a bail and allow the criminal loose due to the violent nature of a crime. The judges hands were tied because they were not allowed to enforce immigration laws that exist. The criminal was released and disappeared. That happens every day. There is no way to track people, or know who they are. What about the humanitarian issue at the border and beyond where thieves, rapists, drug cartels and coyotes wait to take advantage of many of these good people? What about the people who die crossing the deserts in Texas to make a better life for themselves? Did you know that there are people who actually set out food and water to try to help save lives? Imagine a situation where those good people did not have to die and were instead allowed to cross legally without falling victim to crime and death by dehydration. How about the “Muslim ban” which, in fact, was a policy that Obama drew up in 2011. Those countries are known to export terrorism. I have seen so much junk about how you are more likely to be killed by a white guy than a terrorist. I guess those people would like to let in 10k and find out how many terrorists made it through as we pick up the dead bodies of fellow American citizens. Maybe like a “fast and furious 2”. If even one American has to die because of a failure of government to protect us it is too much. It is completely reasonable to assume that just because Europe is having a crisis of rapes and attacks that it would not happen here, right? Now, who actually thinks that building a relationship with Russia is a bad thing? Do you actually believe that Russia hacked our election to sway the opinions of Americans? I guess you feel that the war mongering is a good thing? Do you believe that a deescalation of the million plus NATO and Russian troops that have been massing at each other’s borders would be bad? Do you believe that Russia wanted to enter the conflict in Syria to stop another feeble government from falling to “the JV team” because we failed to act and actually funded and provided weapons to our enemies via the CIA? Would it be a bad thing to have Russia as a strategic ally as China starts to exert military force against our allies in the South Pacific and block our ability for free trade in the region? Again, a byproduct of inaction when it mattered. Let’s talk about some of our allies now. Many of them talk tough, and our military is there to back them up. However, when we have asked for aid many of them shy away, and provide the most pathetic level of support if any at all. We need to reassess our strategic alliances and ask ourselves if they are holding up their end of the bargain. Are they pulling their own weight, or are we subsidizing their interests in spite of our own? Last but not least is the U.N. They insert politics and b.s. in place of morality and “right and wrong.” They have abused their power to create logical fallacies and moral equivalencies where none exist. The support over time from all of our allies changes based on the political climate in their countries except for one. Yes, I mean Israel. Their support for us never wavers, and mostly because their existence depends on our full support. The decision to abstain in the vote against Israel puts the security of that nation directly at risk. From a military perspective, the borders being discussed leave Israel with a 10 mile territory which divides North from South. How long would it take a blitzkrieg style attack to divide the nation? To open borders to Jordan and Egypt invites massive shipments of weapons and rockets to be used against Israeli citizens. You have never experienced the sirens at night as you flee to your street’s bomb shelter because Iranian made missiles are raining down on your neighborhood. Under world scrutiny Israeli troops must reenter and reoccupy Palestinian and Lebanese territories because Hezbollah and Hamas are deploying rocket launchers at schools and mosques with women and children as human shields. Israel shares our democratic values. They protect the same religious and social values that we do. Granted, not so much in the case of people who are trying to kill them all, but what would you do? I was there in 2001 on an archaeological dig in the disputed Golan Heights. The site is called Bethsaida, and is believed to be the lost birthplace of John the Apostle. It is also the site that scholars believe was the site where Jesus fed the minions, walked on water and healed the blind man. In other words, a crucially important site for Christianity all over the world, and it was a life altering experience to be a part of that. Now, that site is a natural mound, or tel, that overlooks the entire valley of Northern Israel. A good deal of the richness of that site was destroyed because we were removing Syrian bunkers and gun emplacements that were dug right through the ruins of the city, and was used pre-1967 to shell, indiscriminately, Israeli towns below. I was in Israel again in 2006 and walked the 12 stations of the cross. That path takes you through the disputed territory of East Jerusalem. That experience is lost to future generations if that land must be returned. I was on the border of Lebanon where our guide pointed out that the Lebanese guard shacks were manned by Hezbollah militants. Sure enough, there were guys in masks visible with the naked eye manning those positions, and not Lebanese soldiers. My plane was one of the last ones to leave Ben Gurion airport before the rocket attacks forced Israel to shut down the airport. I landed here in the U.S., where we have never dealt with something of that nature or magnitude, and watched on the television how full scale war has broken out between Israel and the terrorists in Lebanon and Gaza. There is zero possibility of any solution to this crisis without a peace that absolutely guarantees Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state. Which brings me to another point. Obama signed a deal with Iran that made us the laughing stock of the world. It allows them to continue enriching uranium, and if we want to inspect the sites to ensure the quantities or purpose of the enrichment we must provide 30 days written notice. Then they will decide where our inspectors may go. In recent months, they have kidnapped our sailors and held them for ransom which our former President paid to the tune of $1.4 billion in cash! They have also held multiple missile tests where the words, “Death To Israel” were written in Hebrew so the message was heard loud and clear. Those missile tests were in direct violation of the agreement we just signed with them. This is a nation who had openly promised to use nuclear weapons against Israel if they ever got them, and we paved the way. Don’t forget the anti-American rhetoric that is used by their leaders and politicians, and the chant, “Death to America” can be heard throughout the country. I pray that, in ten or fifteen years time, it isn’t your children or mine that are sent to die to reverse yet another failed policy that our government made for personal or political gain. Last, but certainly not least is the idea that the infrastructure spending is too much, or it’s unnecessary or just ridiculous. Our national debt is out of control. There is little we can do to slow it or stop the bleeding. If you don’t see the writing on the wall then I feel bad that you won’t be ready when those walls come crashing down around you. Wouldn’t you feel more secure knowing that when the bubble bursts and the dollar fails causing worldwide havoc, that your lights, heat and lifeline will stay on because our national infrastructure systems were upgraded and will remain intact in even the most desperate of situations? Yes, I feel safer and more optimistic, and in spite of what you think you are too.

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  39. David M says:

    @Ryan:

    Paragraphs are your friend.

    The Muslim ban is not in place, and did nothing to make us safer.

    Illegal immigration peaked in 2007 and has been declining since then, so there wasn’t really a problem to fix.

    The Iran deal made us safer, as even Israel acknowledges now. We gave up nothing, and gained a great deal.

    The reversal of the transgender rules didn’t make anyone safer, as there was no evidence the original rule placed anyone in danger. If anything Trumps action placed the transgendered at more risk of physical violence.

    Trump has hurt the economy with his ill thought out actions so far, it’s obvious that tourism and higher education will suffer as he makes the country appear less welcoming for no reason.

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  40. teve tory says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl: I’m actually really hoping he makes it all 4 years. A) the press would fawn over mike pence if trump resigned, and that would fool people B) After 4 years like the last 2 months, the Dems would be able to elect a Jack Russell Terrier in a beret and a Che Guevara t-shirt if they wanted to. 😀

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  41. Ryan says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl: Check out people like Rachel Maddow. That whiny b!*ch still cracks me up. :)
    I love these opinion polls that are put out and when you look at who paid you understand the result. Are you guys that thick headed?

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  42. Davebo says:

    @David M:

    The person who actually wrote most of that dribble didn’t bother with paragraphs and Ryan didn’t bother adding them before pasting them in here.

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  43. Mr. Bluster says:

    @Ryan:.. I already have a better outlook on my children’s future…

    If you ever take them to the White House be sure that Pussy grabbing President Pud is not there.

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  44. Davebo says:

    I have witnessed arraignment hearings where police have begged the judge not to set a bail and allow the criminal loose due to the violent nature of a crime. The judges hands were tied because they were not allowed to enforce immigration laws that exist. The criminal was released and disappeared. That happens every day. There is no way to track people, or know who they are.

    Was this a Judge Judy arraignment hearing? If a suspect committed a crime of violent nature where would immigration law come into play in arraignment?

    And why would police be pushing the judge to deny bail and not the prosecutor?

    Seriously, the level of ignorance in this sad attempt at an anecdotal claim is hilarious.

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  45. Ryan says:

    @David M:

    Ban not in place yet.

    Peaks and valleys in illegal immigration are not a reason to ignore it.

    In what way did the Iran deal make us safer? That’s funny, really. Have they violated the terms, and how many times?

    You have no data to support your claim. You can not argue my feeling that my daughter might be put at risk. I guess we would need another “fast and furious 3” litmus test to see if any children are put at risk when there are other easier ways to solve the issue than political brownie points.

    What evidence leads you to believe that Trump is hurting the economy? When was the last time the market soared above 20k? Oh, never.

    I guess we are going to ignore every other point, right and offer ridiculous and incomplete excuses for the ones we did cover? I guess that’s convenient.

    What else you got Mr. Smartypants?

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  46. Pch101 says:

    @Ryan:

    I didn’t bother reading that, but it looks like a cry for help.

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  47. grumpy realist says:

    @Ryan: Sorry, I don’t read screeds without punctuation that are swiped from other websites.

    In other words, I don’t deal with people who aren’t in touch with reality.

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  48. Ryan says:

    @Davebo: Obviously you don’t know what an arraignment hearing is or how it is conducted.

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  49. Pch101 says:

    @Ryan:

    You must have obtained your legal knowledge from Days of Our Lives, As the World Turns, or everyone’s favorite legal sage, Rush Limbaugh.

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  50. Ryan says:

    That’s ok boys. You just stay in your little safe space as it shrinks around you. The big boys will do the dirty work that needs to be done to #Make Our Country Great Again! Go on, head back out to your little picket lines for causes that you don’t understand. It’s all makes for some great humor. :)

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  51. Davebo says:

    @Ryan:

    Quite the contrary. There were some questions in my comment that you ignored.

    I can’t say I’m shocked.

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  52. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @Ryan:
    #Make Our Country Great Again!
    Stupid fvck…this country is already great…unless you’re a racist who is afraid of losing his white privilege.
    As for shrinking…it’s the orange comb-overs support that is shrinking…in a hurry.
    Denying facts doesn’t change the facts.

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  53. Ryan says:

    I’m so glad I found this site. I’ll be checking in regularly to bring some logic to your silly conversations. It must be painful for all of you to watch Trump shatter your self-righteous and close-minded fairy tale world like a friggin’ BOSS!
    Let the liberal tears continue…

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  54. David M says:

    @Ryan:

    The transgendered bathroom hysteria is based on a myth: http://www.vox.com/2016/5/5/11592908/transgender-bathroom-laws-rights

    Trump’s tourism slump: http://www.frommers.com/tips/miscellaneous/the-travel-press-is-reporting-the-trump-slump-a-devastating-drop-in-tourism-to-the-united-states

    Iran complying with nuclear deal: https://www.yahoo.com/news/iran-complies-nuclear-deal-un-watchdog-172723035.html

    The tourism and nuclear deal aren’t really arguable. Of course canceling valid visas for no reason will hurt. And Iran possessing fewer centrifuges and less nuclear material obviously is a good thing.

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  55. Davebo says:

    @David M:

    And Iran possessing fewer centrifuges and less nuclear material obviously is a good thing.

    Not if you have a raving erection over the idea of invading Iran. Admittedly, that’s a lot of blue pills but still.

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  56. Franklin says:

    @Jake:

    Going to be a long 8 yrs for you posters

    Whatever his term, it’s going to be long for everybody. We didn’t actually want to be right about Trump, but it appears that we are.

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  57. Jen says:

    @Ryan: No liberal tears here.

    Just amusement. Steve Bannon is apparently fretting about how many Trump voters will lose their health care if the Medicaid expansion is rescinded. Democratic state and local organizations are being overrun by new volunteers, many of them young people. A state senate special election in Delaware had more than 1,000 volunteers making phone calls and raising money–oh, and she won, preserving the Democratic control of the state senate in that state. The ACLU has raised a ton of money, and the NYT and WaPo both have subscription numbers up, substantially.

    I am old enough to have witnessed something similar before–it’s backlash. In 1993, after Bill Clinton was elected with a minority of the popular vote, special elections across the country started to go to Republicans, even in heavily Democratic districts. I know this because, well, I was working for the Republican party at the time. Oh, and guess what happened in the 1994 midterm elections? That’s right, the party out of power won the Congress.

    Americans actually like divided government. They also like big government, they just don’t like paying for it.

    Many in Congress and even some in Israel realize that throwing the Iran deal in the trash would destabilize the region further, not something terribly advisable at this point. Most of your other points are similarly on thin ice; I don’t have time to go through them all right now.

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  58. panda says:

    @Jake: Leaving aside the fact Rasmussen is the only pollster giving Trump net favorable approval, 51-49% are TERRIBLE numbers for a president in his first couple of months. W, who came into office under equally divisive circumstances, was the mid 60 at this point in time.

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  59. S. Fields says:

    Ryan sez:

    You can not argue my feeling that my daughter might be put at risk.

    There it is in a nutshell, folks. There really is nothing to be gained from engaging with a Ryan.

    It is simply true that you can’t argue someone like the Jakes and Ryans of this country out of their feelings. No amount of empiricism can be brought to bear that is going to change their feelings, as feelings aren’t rational. Violent crime may be at historic lows, not a 4 decade high, and not a single criminal management policy has been specifically identified by Trump and the GOP (let alone enacted), but dammit Ryan felt scared 3 months ago and doesn’t anymore. Therefore, all you all can go stuff yourselves.

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  60. mannning says:

    So far, I see three glaring modes of operation: 1) Trump misusing the language, attacking the media, using Twitter to excess and getting flamed for it; 2) Trump wielding the pen to tear asunder the Obama network of regulations and EOs; and, 3) Trump telling us how good it’s going to be when he really hits his stride with his SCOTUS nomination, repeal/replace of Obamacare, bolstering defense and tax revisions. It appears that critics are hung up on (1), while the Repubs are moving to enact new healthcare legislation and Trump is steadily writing new EOs to counter Obama’s versions. His pen will win, I think.

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  61. Ryan says:

    @David M:

    Again, doing my best to follow your preferred method of posting etiquette:

    Vox is purely an editorial site, and is not a viable source of news. Nowhere do they make a claim to be a reputable source of factual information.

    Frommers is owned by google, so we know what their “opinions,” I mean reporting, will look like, and again, seemingly editorial based. They put out some good guides, but are not financial experts who can make claims as to the strength or weakness of the economy.

    The IAEE has done no inspections, but yet your article says they are complying with the terms of the deal. The article is stating that because Iran says they are complying that they must, in fact, be complying. The truth is that the IAEE is not too happy about how the deal is structured, which effectively blocks them from having any meaningful inspections to begin with. The IAEE is left unable to ensure cooperation and adherence to the agreement. The article completely ignores the ballistic missile tests, and the seizure of our soldiers in International waters.

    You are talking out of your ass just like the rest. You are flying blind, and this whole scenario must be really sad for you. Don’t worry though, the light at the end of the tunnel is just a short 7 years and 11 months away. :)

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  62. panda says:

    @Ryan:

    You can not argue my feeling that my daughter might be put at risk.

    You cannnot argue my feeling that people called Ryan are dangerous and need to have chips implanted in their heads.

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  63. Just 'nutha ign'int cracker says:

    This ends Demonstration Number 4653 in the continuing series Why Doesn’t Feeding the Trolls Work? Thank you all for participating; we couldn’t do the series without you.

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  64. David M says:

    The myth of the US immigration problem: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-02-21/the-myth-of-the-u-s-immigration-crisis

    Being flat or negative for the last decade isn’t “peaks and valleys”. Trump’s administration has de-prioritized the deportation of criminals in favor of indiscriminate deportations. He’s also been focused on reducing legal immigration.

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  65. panda says:

    Ryan:

    Frommers is owned by google, so we know what their “opinions,” I mean reporting, will look like, and again, seemingly editorial based.

    A 2 second google search:

    Frommers.com is owned and operated by FrommerMedia LLC. Copyright (c) 2000-2014 by FrommerMedia LLC.

    What is the possible benefit for people like Ryan in spreading lies anyone could refute in 2 seconds?

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  66. David M says:

    @Ryan:

    The IEAA inspected Parchin in 2015: http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/21/middleeast/iran-nuclear-inspection/

    There are plenty of other news articles about them inspecting facilities.

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  67. Ryan says:

    @S. Fields: Yeah, sure, grab on to the only point that is based in subjective thought and use it to try to discredit every other point based on logic and fact that somehow you are all blind to.
    Next, you’ll be calling me a racist, homophobic bigot so that you can avoid having to argue on the merits of the discussion. Yet, not one of you has, or most likely would be able to make a point because you are at a serious disadvantage. That disadvantage is that you have not ever tried to track the articles you are reading to their source to discover the farce. You take everything you read at face value because it is convenient and fits your narrative. That is the very reason that so many of you failed to see the true issues of this election as they were. It is why so many of you are so outraged and upset now.
    Anything else?

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  68. Just 'nutha ign'int cracker says:

    @Jen:

    Americans actually like divided government. They also like big government, they just don’t like paying for it.

    I’ve been saying this to people for about 25 or 30 years. Most of the people that I’ve said it to tell me that being that cynical is bad and that I should have a higher opinion of my fellow Americans.

    And now they elected–in a majority of the States–Trump. Lily Tomlin was right–it’s hard to stay cynical enough.

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  69. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @Ryan:

    like a friggin’ BOSS!

    If all my boss did was whine like the so-called president whines then I’d look for another job. Oh…the press isn’t fair to me…boo-hoo.

    Next, you’ll be calling me a racist, homophobic bigot

    You unflinchingly support a racist homophobic bigot. That makes you a racist homophobic bigot.

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  70. Ryan says:

    Ok, I’ll indulge your side tracking mindless babble for a second.
    You are stating that Frommer’s is predicting a failing economy because they suspect the travel industry to suffer a blow because of changes in the illegal immigration policy. Who vacations in the U.S.? Americans travel domestically and wealthy Europeans and Asians travel here as well. You are trying to say that they won’t come here because they feel bad for immigrants? How many times have you gone on vacation and cared one bit for the plight of the people busing your tables? Be realistic. It takes real thought for that, and you just don’t have it. Now, the travel industry has always been a huge indicator of the U.S. economy as well. Right? Is that what you are trying to say?
    Do any of you have any viable and real evidence to support any of your claims from a viable source that is not biased? Or can you demonstrate that you have read an article to completion and actually know what it’s about or do you just read the headlnes?
    Bunch of geniuses on this website.

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  71. Ryan says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl: I knew that was coming you mindless idiot, lol. Good job! It is how liberals and the left cope with facts they don’t like.

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  72. Davebo says:

    I think I get it now. Ryan is sort of a Barbieintheboondocks without the slight charm.

    I saw..

    I heard..

    If you’d seen what I saw…

    He’s just not encumbered by the plausible sense of deniability Barbie employed. That, and he’s at least smart enough to realize when he’s tossed out an obviously untethered from reality anecdote and knows to ignore and move on with the next.

    So, not smart, but smarter than Barbie at least and that’s something.

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  73. Kylopod says:

    @Franklin:

    Actually I have some sympathy. Not everybody pays that much attention, and in fact smart people tend to tune out election nonsense. You and I can separate most of the wheat from the chaff, but some busy people just don’t make the time to do so.

    Godat seemed fairly tuned in. He’s just clueless. It would be one thing if he’d been one of those voters who supported Trump only very reluctantly. I’m not a big fan of those voters, either, because among other things it means they bought into the demonization of Hillary Clinton. But at least I’ll give them this: they aren’t totally blind to Trump’s flaws. They weren’t expecting a knight riding in on his chariot. And that’s important, because never before in the whole history of our country has a major-party nominee for president been so obviously unfit for the job. Anyone who didn’t notice this, and who thought he was just what the country needed to shake up the system, is a sucker, plain and simple.

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  74. wr says:

    @Ryan: “You can not argue my feeling that my daughter might be put at risk. ”

    And because of that we should pass laws discriminating against certain members of society so that your little feelings aren’t trouble. You are a good little Trumpy, aren’t you?

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  75. wr says:

    @Ryan: ” Yeah, sure, grab on to the only point that is based in subjective thought and use it to try to discredit every other point based on logic and fact that somehow you are all blind to.”

    Well, if anyone needed proof that “Ryan” is not a real Trumpy but a troll, this is it. Possibly he’s one of our regular trolls who decided he needed a new identity; possibly he’s just some Breitbart piece of crap. But he’s got nothing to say and will say anything to keep people responding. I made the mistake of doing so once — won’t do it again.

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  76. David M says:

    @Ryan:

    because they suspect the travel industry to suffer a blow because of changes in the illegal immigration policy. Who vacations in the U.S.? Americans travel domestically and wealthy Europeans and Asians travel here as well. You are trying to say that they won’t come here because they feel bad for immigrants

    They cancelled *valid* visas for no reason, and attempted to cancel *legal* green cards. It had nothing to do with illegal immigration, it was simply incompetent malevolence, which did not make the USA a more attractive tourist destination. And now that it is cancelled, but has the potential to be reinstated with no notice, it can’t do anything but reduce tourism. Now this won’t cause a recession by itself, but it will hurt the economy.

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  77. Ryan says:

    @Davebo: Again, a cute little idea, but nothing really to add in any meaningful way. That is proving to be a common idea on this website.

    Don’t worry, I finally understand. This is another congregation of people who are still miserable about the election, and don’t realize that tens of millions of Americans put their foot down. He is doing exactly what we expected he would do. This is just where you guys come together to cry about it.

    Can even one of you point to any concrete evidence to back up the claims made by this article? We can keep it simple and just start right there. How about tracking where the poll that the article is based on. See if you can manage to track the money, and the money trail will tell you what you need to know. This isn’t rocket science boys.

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  78. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @Ryan:
    You’re clearly a bigot…why deny it? If you were any kind of man you would own it. Only a pu$$y goes around denying what he is.

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  79. Ryan says:

    @David M: Imagine if you do a gradual freeze of visa entries. You’d have all of the ones you are trying to block rush to get in. Yes, there were unfortunate casualties of that. I agree that sucks, but stopping it instead of dealing with case by case scenarios puts you in danger. Genius move by that judge. I know you don’t like the idea of stopping the refugee flow because a couple bad eggs may enter, but chances are that it won’t be you that dies if they get here and attack. Let’s say for arguments sake that it was you specifically that would die if even one terrorist entered. Would you still have the same view of this issue? Why are any of you willing to deal in the potential deaths of American citizens? If it were your ass on the line there would be no question about your answer. I’m just not willing to compromise on your life or any one else’s by opening the doors. We have enough issues at home. We don’t need to create more. The situation in some European countries is not good. Can you at least agree with that?

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  80. Jen says:

    @Ryan:

    You are stating that Frommer’s is predicting a failing economy because they suspect the travel industry to suffer a blow because of changes in the illegal immigration policy.

    What? No. That isn’t what the article says at all. It says that the decline in tourism is around 6.8%; flight passengers from the 7 countries named in the Trump EO declined by 80% during the last week of January/early February; and that searches for trips from other countries to the US have declined by 17%. All real numbers–actual data that is very easily collected.

    They then extrapolate that were that pattern to continue, it would result in a pretty significant decline in foreign travel to the US. I don’t really see how anyone can argue that this is a good thing. It isn’t just *tourism* that is affected, note that the article said that *business travel* declined too, with a loss of $185 million in a single week.

    It stands to reason that travel would decline if children’s book authors and Holocaust historians and JPL employees are all getting hassled by CBP, because these stories make news. The children’s book author is from Australia, and the historian is a French citizen. The JPL employee is a US citizen. OF COURSE people are going to start thinking “eh, maybe we should go to Paris this year instead of Anaheim.”

    Another economic hit would be if foreign students stop applying to US universities. Many if not most of them pay full freight, which allows US students to get loans and scholarships from colleges and universities.

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  81. Ryan says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl: You’re a joke my friend. Do you have any actual ideas that weren’t spoon fed to you? You’re a moron. You should own it.

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  82. Ryan says:

    @Jen: That remark was the conclusion the poster of the original Frommer’s article was trying to make.

    Are you aware that late January and early February are the slowest periods of the year across any economic sector? Does this article compare year over year numbers, or is it just taking a common occurrence and attaching a made up reason to it to feed the beast that is upset liberals and Democrats?

    Look, I’m trying to challenge you people to think critically and logically.

    I am having a really hard time accomplishing that, but a lot of fun in the meantime. I really doubt that we will get there.

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  83. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @Ryan:
    I love that people who blindly support a racist and his racist policies think they are somehow not tattooed with that very same racism. Sorry pal…if you support racism then you are, in fact, a racist. Calling me a moron won’t change that.

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  84. David M says:

    @Ryan:

    There is not a big risk from the refugees or visas from those countries, as evidenced by the administration’s inability to defend the EO in court. I’m more than willing to accept the minuscule risk those programs present, as the benefits are much greater.

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  85. David M says:

    @Ryan:

    Does this article compare year over year numbers,

    Seems like you should have read the article before commenting on it…

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  86. Mr. Bluster says:

    I’m trying to challenge you people to think critically and logically.

    “The site is called Bethsaida, and is believed to be the lost birthplace of John the Apostle. It is also the site that scholars believe was the site where Jesus fed the minions, walked on water and healed the blind man.”

    No. You are not.
    You are offering myth and superstition to support your arguments.

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  87. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @Ryan:

    Why are any of you willing to deal in the potential deaths of American citizens?

    Look, I’m trying to challenge you people to think critically and logically.

    Incredible to believe the same person typed those two sentences.

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  88. teve tory says:

    we need some kinda structural change to the comments. This isn’t working.

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  89. Mikey says:

    @panda:

    What is the possible benefit for people like Ryan in spreading lies anyone could refute in 2 seconds?

    Well, one can win the Presidency.

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  90. Ryan says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl:
    Why are any of you willing to deal in the potential deaths of American citizens?
    Look, I’m trying to challenge you people to think critically and logically.

    Incredible to believe the same person typed those two sentences.

    Explain yourself. In what way do those two sentences contradict each other? Even when taken out of context as you did. How?

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  91. steve says:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/20/travel/after-travel-ban-declining-interest-trips-to-united-states.html?_r=0

    The flight numbers are available for comparison with last year’s numbers and for the few weeks before the drop. The claim of seasonal variation is incorrect. This guy is stupid and trolling. Ignore him.

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  92. S. Fields says:

    @Ryan:

    Yeah, sure, grab on to the only point that is based in subjective thought and use it to try to discredit every other point based on logic and fact that somehow you are all blind to.

    Um… your very first comment on this thread contains these emotional assertions without data:

    I already feel safer and more protected by what President Trump has managed to accomplish in just his first month. I already have a better outlook on my children’s future and that of our country going forward.

    I’m not going to bother reading all your comments on this thread (you appear to have copious free time), but a random sampling revealed a lot of name calling and whining, but nothing I’d call a fact and a lot of evidence-less claims posing as logic.

    At the bottom of your lengthiest screed (tl:dr), you once again summarize with your feelings:

    Yes, I feel safer and more optimistic, and in spite of what you think you are too.

    Which is that? A fact or logic?

    Look, I’m not interested in trying to persuade you of anything. As I’ve noted to the rest of the commentariat here, you’re going to go with your gut – data is for pussies – so you’re beyond persuasion.

    I just hope your feeling that the country’s better off comforts you in the night, while the rest of the US and the world wrestles with the actual results of your man’s work. The little data that’s available isn’t promising, but Trump hasn’t done much concrete yet – the EOs and laws he’s signed are predominantly guidances and minor (albeit damaging) rule changes – so we’ll see.

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  93. David M says:

    @Ryan:

    Because your fear-mongering over the threats from refugees and valid visa holders is not exactly thinking critically and logically.

    Including those murdered in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 (9/11), the chance of an American perishing in a terrorist attack on U.S. soil that was committed by a foreigner over the 41-year period studied here is 1 in 3.6 million per year. The hazard posed by foreigners who entered on different visa categories varies considerably. For instance, the chance of an American being murdered in a terrorist attack caused by a refugee is 1 in 3.64 billion per year while the chance of being murdered in an attack committed by an illegal immigrant is an astronomical 1 in 10.9 billion per year. By contrast, the chance of being murdered by a tourist on a B visa, the most common tourist visa, is 1 in 3.9 million per year.

    (Source)

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  94. al-Alameda says:

    @Jake:

    @Kylopod:
    Loser

    Two questions:
    (1) Are you 12 years old?
    (2) Are you 13 years old?

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  95. Ryan says:

    @Mr. Bluster: Look up Bethsaida.
    You guys here are just about as mindless as they come. A little disappointed that none of you can form a complete thought for yourself that isn’t a regurgitated headline that really doesn’t substantiate your garbage to begin with.

    I expected perhaps some real points from at least one of you, but, as usual, you’re all just sheep who don’t think for yourselves so it is my fault for expecting anything.

    You guys keep right on swallowing the MSM load. They are ramming it deep. I hope that at some point you’ll wipe your chins and come up for air.

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  96. David M says:

    @Ryan:

    A little disappointed that none of you can form a complete thought for yourself that isn’t a regurgitated headline that really doesn’t substantiate your garbage to begin with

    That would be more convincing if you had posted anything at all to back up your claims, or contradict any of the evidence we’ve posted. You’re all about thinking critically and logically, so I would think that you would be on board with presenting actual evidence to back up any claims.

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  97. Terrye Cravens says:

    @Ryan: What makes you think it is fake? Personally, I know a lot of people who are amazed that the guy they voted for is such an ass. And there are those such as yourself who are whistling past that graveyard. They blame the media, assume any and all stories that even hint that America is not thrilled with Trump are just made up. That is just pathetic.

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  98. Terrye Cravens says:

    It is really kind of scary to see how brainwashed people like Ryan are. They honestly assume that any criticism of their idol is just MSM propaganda. Never mind the fact that it is obvious that the country is divided. It is obvious that Trump never won a majority in the first place. It reminds me of those poor people who drank that kool aid for Jim Jones.

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  99. An Interested Party says:

    What else you got Mr. Smartypants?

    Who could have guessed that Sarah Palin would find her way to this blog? I wonder if she was holding a Big Gulp as she typed that…

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  100. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    @teve tory: Stop arguing with people one thinks are idiots and that will help–whichever side one is on.

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  101. Mr. Bluster says:

    “…where Jesus fed the minions, walked on water and healed the blind man.”

    Myth and Superstition

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  102. Mr. Bluster says:

    Lyan Ryan.
    You should really keep references to your boyfriend Milo out of this.

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  103. teve tory says:

    @Just ‘nutha ig’nint cracker: no, i’m just coming here less and less. The good comments have become too dilute.

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  104. t says:

    he’s going all out

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  105. Gustopher says:

    @Jen: on the plus side, I’m thinking of taking off to Hawaii or San Diego this year, just so I don’t have to deal with our fascist border guards. So, internal tourism might go up!

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  106. Mr. Bluster says:

    Trump and Putin sitting in a tree
    Kay Eye Es Es Eye En Gee
    First comes love
    Then comes marriage,
    Then comes Ryan in a baby carriage!

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  107. KM says:

    Gonna try and reboot thread from the troll.

    Question: what do you think Mr. Godat from the article and others like him think of their fellow Trump voters like Ryan? He had reasons why he voted Trump but the reality of the situation is driving him to regret his actions. How would he feel about someone still out and proud with their admiration of this dumpster fire? How will it shape his views of his party and contemporaries?

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  108. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @Ryan:

    I expected perhaps some real points from at least one of you

    I love these invented polls and made up news stories. These are the same journalists and pollsters who told us he would lose in a landslide.

    Again, incredible the same person typed both of these comments.
    A poster child for Dunning-Kruger.
    cognitive dissonance
    noun, Psychology.

    anxiety that results from simultaneously holding contradictory or otherwise incompatible attitudes, beliefs, or the like

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  109. Jen says:

    @KM: That’s an interesting question, and goes to how those we are surrounded by shape our opinions in small ways. I think it depends on a few factors–how direct the negative impacts are, if the line between the negative impact and Trump’s actions causing said negative impact is clear, and how influential those around individuals like Mr. Godat are.

    Someone like my father, who is 80, is not going to change his mind about Trump unless something he does directly impacts him in a negative way. He has invested too heavily, emotionally speaking, in Trump’s success, and he has all of the tired conservative conceptions of Democrats. Whatever. And this is despite the fact that he was a reluctant Trump voter, he’s now one of those Republicans for whom the harder Democrats push back against Trump, the firmer his resolve to support him gets.

    The question is, how many reluctant Trump supporters are like that, and how many are realizing they might have made a mistake in thinking Trump could even be presidential? I don’t know the answer to that question.

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  110. al-Alameda says:

    @Ryan:

    You guys keep right on swallowing the MSM load. They are ramming it deep. I hope that at some point you’ll wipe your chins and come up for air.

    That was some solid middle school level stuff right there.

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  111. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    OT…Trump once again silent about white terrorists. For him and his suppoeters it’s only about Muslims and Mexicans.
    http://www.kansascity.com/opinion/editorials/article135323049.html
    Remember – he was also silent about the Quebec City Mosque attacks.

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  112. Pete S says:

    @KM: I think it depends on the individuals’ end goals from voting for Trump. There are some people who seem to think that all that mattered was the election. They managed to foist their guy on a populace who clearly didn’t want him. Now they are basking in their glory. What Trump does or doesn’t do, doesn’t matter. They won. Trump spent the last two years telling them that they have been doing nothing but losing, so the win feels good. This is it. That is why you see so many of them referring back to the election.

    For people who expected some actual, tangible results from Trump, they will be disappointed. But I don’t see them looking down in any way on the continuing Trump supporters until they vote for him again (and they will) even though he is working as hard as he can with Congress to hurt their interests.

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  113. Surreal American says:

    @al-Alameda:

    That’s a generous assessment from you. Ryan’s comments are late elementary school material at best.

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  114. Pch101 says:

    Trump is a sort of Tony Robbins for the Dunning-Kruger crowd. He helps dumb people to feel better about themselves.

    That aspect of Trump will appeal strongly to “Ryan” and his low IQ friends. But those lemmings have always comprised some segment of the electorate and are not the essence of the problem.

    The greater issue is that there are Republicans who vote for him again because he is the Republican and/or he isn’t the Democrat. No matter how bad he gets, they will still vote for him.

    We’re back to the same problem as before: Democrats need to get out the vote among members of their own party, plus win over a few more percentage points of independents. You cannot expect disgruntled Republicans to step up in numbers that are large enough to matter; they are sure to disappoint you and will rationalize the decision to remain loyal to the party.

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  115. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    he’s now one of those Republicans for whom the harder Democrats push back against Trump, the firmer his resolve to support him gets.

    Which, hamfisted though he may be, might be what James Pierce is referring to when he suggests that indignation about Trump may feel good but be ineffective for getting the changes you want. Forgive me for going off topic.

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  116. grumpy realist says:

    @Pch101: This all reminds me of how a part of the Urals ended up radioactive….

    “Revealed Truth” doesn’t convince Mama Nature. And she is a MEAN bitch.

    So Trumpie and his Lumpenproletariat can whine all they want about “fake news” and “alternative facts” and drive the US into more and more chaos, all the time patting themselves on the back about how WONDERFUL they are and how it’s just All Those Nasty Liberals who are pointing out the consequences of going down the path they are going.

    At some point, reality is going to bite. Hard. With the end result that China will be top dog, the US will have collapsed into a collection of bickering territories, and we won’t be the place in the world that those who want to go for the top research and education or entrepreneurial capabilities will go. And the whining of the alt-right will be immense.

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  117. Mr. Bluster says:

    @David M:..Manning…Why are you OK with the Executive Orders from Trump, but not Obama?

    His avatar shows one side of his face. Apparently he has two.

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  118. Pch101 says:

    Trump’s assessment of his own performance thus far:

    I think I’ve done great things, but I don’t think I have — I and my people — I don’t think we’ve explained it well enough to the American public. I think I get an A in terms of what I’ve actually done, but in terms of messaging, I’d give myself a C or a C-plus.

    I’d give him an F-minus for self-awareness, but that would be too high of a grade.

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  119. mannning says:

    @Mr. Bluster:

    Because of the content and purposes of Trump’s EOs versus Obama’s EOs in general. Most of Trump’s EOs are targeted to mitigate Obama’s EO’s or his administration’s regulations, so far, I believe. Trump missed the boat on his immigration pause EO, but he will go at it again, since it is quite legal for him to do so. Trump has stated several times that he believes that Obama has violated the Constitution with some of his EO’s, and that he, Trump, will correct them. I am all for upholding our Constitution.

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  120. Mr. Bluster says:

    @mannning:..Trump has stated several times that he believes that Obama has violated the Constitution with some of his EO’s, and that he, Trump, will correct them. I am all for upholding our Constitution.

    Sure he will.
    This is the same President Pud who thinks there is an Article XII in the USCon.

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  121. mannning says:

    @Mr. Bluster:

    There are things that matter, and then there are trivial things in the long run. The Left is holding Trump to a perfect elocution standard, when Trump is simply not fully versed in the array of details he must eventually master. Small minds tackle small things.

    The petulance and sour grapes of many on the Left is dangerous to the well-being of the people of this nation through obstructionism. The Left should look forward to 2018 and 2020 and read the minds of the majority that are disgusted with the whole idea of obstruction, or else they are handing the elections to the Right for the next 16 years or more. But please, please keep on doing it!

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  122. Matt says:

    @mannning: You know it’s funny how disconnected you are from your own words. You had no issues cheering on the Tea party and the GOP’s tantrums (YOU LIED!! etc). Yet when the left engages in a tiny fraction of similar behaviour as the Tea party you start ranting about how they are trying to destroy America….

    the majority that are disgusted with the whole idea of obstruction, or else they are handing the elections to the right

    That you can make that statement after having supported the GOP through their 8 years of constant obstruction shows how little you care about reality. To you it’s all TEAM G.O.P. GO TEAM GOOOOOOO!!!! The rest is you making up shit post hoc to justify your team cheering.

    The right paid no price for doing everything they could to “make Obama an one term President”…

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  123. mannning says:

    @Matt:

    You know, you are exactly correct, but only in ring 8, which is the GOP at large. Ring 10 is Conservatism, and I have been most consistent in championing conservative values, conservative tactics, and conservative initiatives. Of course I oppose other party attempts at relevance, don’t you? I do believe you do! Right?

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  124. mannning says:

    @mannning:

    On a little reflection, I do believe there is a significant difference between the reality of the past administration with the reality we are swimming in today under a different administration, with a strongly different idea of how to uphold our Constitution, not tear at it from all directions.

    Perhaps you haven’t shifted gears into the new reality yet, I don’t know, but in this new reality the nation will be facing some very deep trials by fire, economically, by conflicts, and many other ways, which will test us vitally. We will need all guns pointed in the same direction to survive, I believe, and obstructionism does just exactly the opposite. You might even say it is self-defeating in this new reality. But, then, I am sure this means nothing to you.

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  125. Matt says:

    @mannning:The GOP hasn’t been a true conservative party for decades now. So I have no idea why you’re so invested in cheering them on despite all their anti-conservative tendencies. Trump is no conservative….

    I hold everyone to the same standards I hold myself to. I don’t have a party because I’m not fully welcomed in any of the parties. I believe in the whole life liberty and the pursuit of happiness thing but I also know that people will discriminate and be assholes in general if allowed. I own guns and hunt but I also realize that there should be regulations regarding gun ownership. That last sentence basically means I’m not wanted in either of the big parties. Add in my pro-choice tendencies and my somewhat socialist leanings (we’re in this together as a society) and you can see why I have no party.

    I used to vote Republican but when 9/11 occurred they collectively lost their minds and I’ve been mostly a Democratic voter since.

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  126. mannning says:

    From your post, you appear to be a lost independent that sides with liberal/progressive views, definitely not a Republican, and most definitely not a conservative. On the face of it, you and I will talk past each other and simply find little common ground, except guns and hunting, and there I have begun to shy away from gunning down magnificent creatures for the sport of it. In our two-party system, a conservative has little choice but to support an alliance with the GOP, but of late we have made considerable progress in turning things our way all across the nation.

    The idea of indiscrimination in everything, which appears to be the progressive mantra these days, is rather naïve and virtually impossible to accept, as is the idea that man is born good and malleable, which doesn’t hold up to the reality of life. Within progressivism, there seems to be no role for God to play, which sets off huge alarms in my mind that there, again, is no common ground here. So perhaps we should leave it at that and avoid slinging mud.

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  127. Matt says:

    @mannning:

    Within progressivism, there seems to be no role for God to play

    Only because you don’t actually read what that Jesus guy used to say and do. You’re too focused on other aspects of the bible that have been twisted by modern “conservative” evangelicals. Generally the bibles here in the USA have been translated intentionally to change the meaning of many passages. If you go back to the original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic versions you’ll see how vastly different most bibles printed in the USA are.

    Personally I don’t need your fabricated god to be good to my fellow man or to be a good person. I have no issue with you having a religion though. I just get tired of having to sit through prayers in basically every fracking public event. Even at the college graduation a couple years ago…

    Hogs are far from magnificent creatures down here. They cause significant amounts of damage all through the year. There are bounties for hog tails and they are good cheap protein. I am very aware that pigs are very smart and the smaller young ones can be quite charming and cute. The full grown ones on the other hand might try to kill you…

    You are right though that we’re not going to find much in the way of common ground on these subjects. I’m sure if we sat down together with some coffee or beer that we could find some common ground.

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  128. mannning says:

    I will give you that! Wild hogs are really dangerous, and should be thinned out. Likewise, the deer population needs to be thinned now and then, but these thinnings are not primarily meant for sport.

    But, are you telling me that the King James Bible published in the US has been seriously edited? Must have been a very long time ago, since my family bible, that dates from 1809, reads exactly the same as my newer version, dated 1961, as far as I have checked. The Gospel has not been edited in my bibles. Now, I am almost certain that the Hebrew Bible will show differences with the KJV, if that is what you are referring to, but since I was brought up on the KJV, it makes little difference to me. I will still be a stand-sit-kneel-stand-sit-kneel Episcopal for life. There may be differences in the selection of books between the two, including the Apocrypha and the book of Enoch, I don’t know.

    You are probably right that we may find much in common over a beer or two–but after three or four, we may be in trouble!

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