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Presidential Race Continues To Tighten With Seven Weeks To Go

Trump Clinton

With forty-nine days,  just seven weeks, left to go in the race for President, the race has largely continued in the holding pattern that I mentioned last week while the polls continue to tighten as we get closer to the first debate next Monday night. On the news front, the campaign was largely dominated by news about the candidate’s health that was prompted by an apparent fainting spell on Clinton’s part while she was at the memorial service for the victims of the September 11th attacks in New York City.  We later learned that Clinton had been diagnosed with pneumonia the previous Friday, a diagnosis which explained much about Clinton’s apparent condition over the previous weeks, including multiple episodes in which she appeared to be unable to shake a cough while speaking. While the press criticized the Clinton campaign for failing to disclose the Friday diagnosis earlier, the diagnosis resulted in Clinton taking several days off the campaign trail, not returning for events until Thursday, at which point she seemed to be in noticeably better condition and far more energetic than she had been leading up to the incident that prompted her to take time off the trail. The incident also led both Clinton and Trump to release additional health records, although in both cases physicians and others said that the information being released still wasn’t detailed enough. The other big news of the week came about when Donald Trump was asked yet again about his previous advocacy for allegations that President Obama was not a legitimate President because he was not born in the United States, an allegation he rode to the new heights of popularity in 2011 but which he’s largely avoided this time around. After being asked about it yet again, Trump came out late in the week and said that he now believed that the President was born in the U.S., but also advanced the largely false claim (see here, here, here, and here) that the birther story began with the Clinton campaign in 2008. As the week came to a close, apparent terror attacks in New York City and New Jersey seemed certain to set the stage for the final week of campaigning before the first debate, In any event, there were hardly any major developments in the race news-wise and both campaigns seemed to spend the week shoring up their own supporters rather than reaching out to new ones

Turning to the polls, we see that the race continues to tighten largely thanks to the fact that the margin between Clinton and Trump continues to shrink from the heights it was at just four weeks ago in the aftermath of the party conventions and several weeks of bad campaigning by the Trump campaign. In the RealClearPolitics two-way match up, for example, Clinton’s lead over Trump has shrunk to 1.3 points from the 5. 5 points it was at four weeks ago. In a four-way race that includes Gary Johnson and Jill Stein, Clinton’s lead stands at 1.1 points, down from the 4.4 points it was at four weeks ago. The measurements are roughly comparable for the Pollster two-way match up and the expanded average that includes Gary Johnson, although not Jill Stein. As the averages show, the race continues to tighten, but it is worth noting that, with the exception of the Los Angeles Times poll, which seems like a outlier given the fact that it has consistently shown Trump doing better than any other poll, and a Fox News poll that gives Trump a one-point lead, Clinton continues to hold the lead in the national polls. Additionally, as the charts show, there’s at least some indication that Clinton’s numbers may be ticking back up, but not by a terribly large amount.

Here’s the chart for the two-way race:

RCP Two Way Chart 92016

And the chart for the four way race:

RCP Four Way Chart 92016

The tightening of the race at the national level has not unexpectedly filtered down to the states, where poll results are continuing to reflect the tightening we’ve seen in recent weeks. Perhaps the most notable changes have come in Florida, Missouri, and Ohio, where Donald Trump has taken a slight lead in the polls albeit within the margin of error, as well as in Colorado and Connecticut, where Clinton continues to lead, but by slightly smaller margins thanks to recent poll results. The result is an Electoral Map from RealClearPolitics that gives Clinton 200 Electoral Votes, Trump 164 Electoral Votes, and designates states totaling 174 Electoral Votes as “tossups.” Without tossups, Clinton continues to come out on top with 293 Electoral Votes to 245 for Trump. Obviously, this is a small Electoral Vote margin than Clinton has had in previous weeks, but with the polls continuing to tighten last week at the state level that’s to be expected. In reality, though, it’s worth noting that many of the changes at the state level were so small that they could easily be turned around rather quickly.

The tightening of the race is also reflected in other projections. Nate Silver’s polls-only forecast, for example, projects a 59.3% likelihood of a Clinton victory and a  40.6% chance of a Republican victory while the ‘Polls-Plus’ forecast gives Clinton a  58.3% chance of winning versus 41.7% for Donald Trump and the “Now-cast,” which purports to project would happen if the election were held today, showing a 57.2% chance of a Clinton victory and a 42.8% chance of a Trump victory. Clinton fares slightly better in Sam Wang’s forecast and in Larry Sabato’s forecast, but her numbers there have tightened a bit as well.

This kind of righter race is obviously being touted as good news by supporters of Donald Trump, and appears to be making at least some Clinton supporters nervous, but it’s largely to be expected. To a large degree we’re seeing the race falling into a pattern similar to what we saw in the closing weeks of the campaign in several recent Presidential elections, most notably the last four elections in 2000, 2004, 2008, and 2012. In each case, the final weeks of the campaign showed volatility, tightening, and at least one lead change before Election Day. To that extent this race seems to be following a similar pattern to ones we’ve seen before rather than one in which a landslide by either candidate seems likely. All of this could change after the debates, of course, and especially after the first debate next Monday, which will come just six weeks before Election Day and just days before many crucial states begin early and absentee voting. A notably good or bad performance by either candidate could have a major impact on the race.

Previous posts:

With Eleven Weeks To Go, Hillary Clinton Appears To Be Unstoppable
Ten Weeks Out: The Presidential Race Tightens A Bit, But Clinton Still Lead
With Nine Weeks To Go, Clinton’s Post-Convention Bounce Seems To Have Disappeared
With Eight Weeks To Go, A Tighter Race But It’s Still Advantage Clinton

Related Posts:

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About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May, 2010 and also writes at Below The Beltway. Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. C. Clavin says:

    Yeah…Trump is winning September.
    The only hope for the Republic is that the debates show Trump for the buffoonish authoritarian he really is. It’s on Clinton to finally take control of this race.
    This man cannot be allowed to be President…especially with a Republican Congress that is uninterested in, and incapable of, governing, and will rubber stamp whatever he wants.

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  2. dmichael says:

    Contra: NBC Tracking national tracking poll: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/clinton-opens-lead-back-up-september-20-national-tracking-poll

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  3. Slugger says:

    I wish we could hold the vote now. I know the candidates well enough to make my choice. I believe that there are very few outstanding undecided people. The election process is certainly tiresome and tending to turn me off. I’d be interested in hearing from anyone who is undecided at this point.

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  4. C. Clavin says:

    @Slugger:

    I wish we could hold the vote now.

    Actually I think early voting is underway in many states.

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  5. Davebo says:

    I wouldn’t panic. The SurveyUSA poll has Trump getting 25% among black registered voters and 31% among Hispanics.

    If you believe that I honestly don’t know what to say.

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  6. SenyorDave says:

    @Slugger: I believe that there are very few outstanding undecided people.

    Still have the debates. I keep thinking that there is no way Trump can hold his own in the debates since none of the Republican debates were about policy, but who knows. I do know that there has to be a better chance of him not knowing something than her, so at least there is that. I also can’t imagine him bullying and insulting he in person. I want her to hammer him on not releasing his taxes. Also bring up the birther issue.

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  7. SKI says:

    @Slugger:

    I’d be interested in hearing from anyone who is undecided at this point.

    No, you really wouldn’t be. Their disengagement would be infuriating for pretty much anyone who frequents OTB.

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  8. SKI says:

    It will be interesting to see how the polls move in response to HRC’s recovery, Trump’s insane Birther statement and today’s revelation about trump using Trump Foundation money to pay off lawsuits against Trump (and buy art).

    Trump used $258,000 from his charity to settle legal problems

    Oh, and the reason the LAT is a consistent outlier was that (a) it isn’t a typical random poll of the electorate but a poll of the same panel over and over and (b) that panel was poorly selected/weighted initially. It may have some utility in trending patterns but the actual numbers themselves are sketchy.

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  9. Franklin says:

    @C. Clavin: Don’t fret, the debates will be rigged against Trump, he told us so!

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  10. CSK says:

    @Franklin:

    He’s been saying that for a few months now, hasn’t he?

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  11. cian says:

    Hard to know what to make of this. What did he do in September that he didn’t do in August, other than tone down the hate from an eleven to a ten. At least 1/2 the country seems to find this impressive.

    Meanwhile the rest of the world looks on amazed, and not because Trump is a racist (Europe, for example, has lots of those and they’re all doing very well indeed), but because he’s incompetent, an obvious conman, a liar and a cheat who is unlikely to produce anything other than mayhem during his period in office. And this is what the most powerful country in the world wants?

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  12. Thor thormussen says:

    Black and hispanic people, mostly women, will save the US, and maybe civilization, from the stupid actions of angry white men.

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  13. Thor thormussen says:

    POLITICO: George H.W. Bush to vote for Hillary Clinton

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  14. Pete S says:

    @CSK: In a way he is right. A debate between two people is rigged against the one who doesn’t know anything about the subject matter and cannot be bothered to learn. A debate with 10 participants rewards being loud and obnoxious, the Trump specialties.

    Of course as long as 40%+ of voters believe that understanding issues and being able to hold the same position on them for more than 5 minutes don’t matter, showing well in the debates probably doesn’t matter in the long run.

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  15. C. Clavin says:
  16. JKB says:

    You know, after Hillary’s “Deplorables” comment, the “Fighting for Us” slogan seems very divisive and otherizing.

    I would also expect that the “Deplorables” comment increased the “shy voters”, those reluctant to admit they’ll vote for Trump, that Scott Adams has written about.

    Whether any of this might shift the final vote is, well, speculative.

    I do, however,think Hillary will need to show some energy in the debate. A video on her plane of her speaking about the NYC bombs, can we say bombs now, showed a very tired looking Hillary who could barely repeat her obviously coached remarks in response to just a couple questions. Hillary will have to show some spring in her step and avoid long bathroom breaks.

    Trump on the other hand, can get the most mileage out of being caring for the sick old lady on the stage. Assuming Hillary is unable to “bring it”. And the moderator moving to help, protect Hillary will only reinforce the tired, weak narrative.

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  17. CSK says:

    @Pete S:

    Indeed. An avid Trump fan won’t care if Trump spends the entire debate time blowing saliva bubbles. And when he loses, badly, it will be because the moderators were out to get him.

    Does Trump himself care, or even understand, that he’s supposed to appeal to more people than just his devotees? Or has he deluded himself that his devotees are the majority of the electorate? I read today that he’s confining his appearances only to media friendly to him. Isn’t that preaching to the converted?

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  18. James Pearce says:

    @Thor thormussen: Seeing these two posts back to back made me laugh:

    Black and hispanic people, mostly women, will save the US, and maybe civilization, from the stupid actions of angry white men.

    POLITICO: George H.W. Bush to vote for Hillary Clinton

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  19. C. Clavin says:

    @JKB:
    There is really no right wing propaganda that you will not buy, is there?

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  20. An Interested Party says:

    You know, after Hillary’s “Deplorables” comment, the “Fighting for Us” slogan seems very divisive and otherizing.

    Not at all…she’s fighting for the people that the Deplorables hate and loathe…

    Trump on the other hand, can get the most mileage out of being caring for the sick old lady on the stage.

    Nice try, but being ill with pneumonia doesn’t make one a “sick old lady”…meanwhile, she can certainly get the most mileage out of being kind and understanding to the nutty basket case with the unnatural orange hair on the stage with her…

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  21. gVOR08 says:

    @C. Clavin:

    This man cannot be allowed to be President…especially with a Republican Congress that is uninterested in, and incapable of, governing, and will rubber stamp whatever he wants.

    Sorry C, I don’t think that’s quite right. I don’t think Trump has any interest in governing, he’ll sign whatever the GOPs pass. Free of a veto threat, the GOPs in Congress will suddenly develop an interest in governing. Constrained only by what Chuck Schumer can do in the Senate, they’ll try to repeal Obamacare, violate the Iran nuke treaty, shift the tax burden down as far as possible, run yuuge deficits, showboat on immigration, guarantee AGW, privatize SS, and appoint worse than Scalia.

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  22. Thor thormussen says:

    @James Pearce:

    Both things are true.

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  23. grumpy realist says:

    I think a lot of Americans are going for the Samson gambit: “We don’t care what happens as long as we can pull the whole goddamn system down around us!”

    A lot of people just want to have a change, any change…supposedly.

    Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

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  24. Jen says:

    Meanwhile, the Trump Foundation has now been exposed as having paid out lawsuit settlements, further evidence of illegal self-dealing.

    How this charlatan is getting away with this, I don’t know. Over the past two weeks, we’ve seen serious reporting from WaPo and Newsweek that raise very serious questions about Trump’s Foundation and his business interests.

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  25. Tony W says:

    Many of Trump’s supporters will not be swayed by anything looking like facts. Talking with a couple of extremely intelligent and savvy coworkers of mine a couple of weeks back I learned:

    – The global economy is on the brink of disaster
    – The dollar is just about to collapse and our money worth nothing
    – Trump’s lack of clarity/purpose is deliberate – he’s trying to keep our enemies off guard by not talking about his plans
    – Every news/fact-checking organization is equally and massively biased. For example: Snopes.com is a liberal conspiracy. Politifact is biased toward Clinton.
    – Obama never released his tax returns either. When presented with his actual returns online (15-seconds to search) he suggested that they weren’t released until after the election
    – Clinton’s e-mail scandal is worthy of treason charges. Trump’s collusion with Putin and solicitation of foreign campaign contributions is just good negotiation.

    ….I could go on.

    These people literally have their own facts. I found it impossible to have a debate on the merits of the candidates because we couldn’t even agree on what reality was.

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  26. CSK says:

    @gVOR08:

    Of course Trump has no interest in governing. Last May, Paul Manafort told Howard Fineman that Trump’s vice president would do “all of the things Trump doesn’t want to do,” because “Trump sees himself as a CEO.”

    Of course, it’s against the Constitution for a president to offload his or her responsibilities onto a vice president, but so what? It’s TrumpWorld, where neither the law not reality impinge.

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  27. Pete S says:

    @CSK:

    Republicans have been telling themselves for years that the silent majority of the country support them and their positions, even after they have lost the popular vote for president 5 times out of 6. Trump probably shares the same belief, he does not seem to be running a campaign where he seeks out and actually listens to different points of view.

    I still don’t understand why, if Republicans believe the country really supports them, they need to engage in voter suppression to have a chance?

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  28. SenyorDave says:

    This story below is one of the leads in the Washington Post. This would disqualify an ordinary person from serving on a town council. He is a not-so-petty thief. Hillary should bring this up in the debates, repeatedly! And if it is not asked about by the moderators, it is journalistic malpractice.

    Trump used $258,000 from his charity to settle legal problems

    By David A. Fahrenthold
    September 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM

    Donald Trump spent more than a quarter-million dollars from his charitable foundation to settle lawsuits that involved the billionaire’s for-profit businesses, according to interviews and a review of legal documents.

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  29. JKB says:

    @An Interested Party: Not at all…she’s fighting for the people that the Deplorables hate and loathe…

    Surely, you see how that is divisive and otherizing?

    No one with a lick of sense believes Hillary has/had pneumonia or was dehydrated and overcome by the heat. No one, especially the elderly recover from pneumonia or dehydration/heat stroke that fast. But people do recover from seizures that fast, and some wear cool Zeiss Z1 blue lenses like Hillary does if they are photosensitive in the cause of their seizures.

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  30. Kylopod says:

    @JKB:

    Trump on the other hand, can get the most mileage out of being caring for the sick old lady

    Notice that JKB is apparently unaware of the fact that Trump is older than Clinton.

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  31. Thor thormussen says:

    Republicans have been telling themselves for years that the silent majority of the country support them and their positions, even after they have lost the popular vote for president 5 times out of 6.

    Here’s how stupid republicans are–a lot of them think the reason they’ve lost 5 out of 6 times is that they weren’t republican enough.

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  32. Thor thormussen says:

    Like the public is literally yelling “We Don’t Like You!” and some republicans are hearing “Be Even More Like Yourself.”

    That’s powerful stupid.

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  33. C. Clavin says:

    @JKB:

    No one with a lick of sense believes Hillary has/had pneumonia or was dehydrated and overcome by the heat.

    Nice…full-on conspiracy theory direct from the fever swamp.
    Fool.

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  34. SKI says:

    @JKB:

    No one with a lick of sense believes Hillary has/had pneumonia or was dehydrated and overcome by the heat. No one, especially the elderly recover from pneumonia or dehydration/heat stroke that fast.

    ummm, this is about the most wrong, idiotic, stupid and insane comment you have made in my memory – and that is a pretty high bar.
    Reality check on Walking pneumonia:

    Complete recovery from having walking pneumonia can take approximately a month but most of the symptoms will start to disappear within a week.

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  35. CSK says:

    @Jen:

    None of these revelations will faze the Trump supporters. They don’t read the Post or the NYTimes because both papers just make up lies about Trump.

    Trumpkins get their news from The Gateway Pundit, The Conservative Treehouse, Breitbart, and Infowars.

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  36. Jen says:

    @CSK: I’m not remotely concerned about Trump supporters, I know they are beyond help or hope.

    I *do* want anyone who is on the bubble, or who thinks “eh, they’re both awful,” or anyone in a swing state voting third party to have this sort of reporting front and center.

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  37. Kari Q says:

    @JKB:

    Trump on the other hand, can get the most mileage out of being caring for the sick old lady on the stage.

    I admit that would have the novelty of being totally unexpected. I’ve never seen or heard of Trump being caring and compassionate toward anyone.

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  38. MarkedMan says:

    @SKI:

    Reality check on Walking pneumonia:

    Complete recovery from having walking pneumonia can take approximately a month but most of the symptoms will start to disappear within a week.

    Valiant effort but you are attempting to succeed in a zone where facts don’t matter… by citing facts. I’ve been on the internet since before it was called the internet and I can just about guarantee that you might as well be trying to convince an armchair to believe in the Immaculate Conception.

    Of course, the only thing more futile than feeding the troll* is telling people not to feed the troll.

    *OK, I know that JKB is most likely not a traditional troll, i.e. someone who only says things to stir up an argument but doesn’t actually believe them. The traditional troll doesn’t care what they say as long as it gets people to start all-capping each other. I suspect JKB is sincere in his viewpoints

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  39. Scott says:

    @grumpy realist:

    We don’t care what happens as long as we can pull the whole goddamn system down around us!”

    Yep, that’s my relatives. They just want to see the whole system blown up. I think that many are disappointed in life or that things have not gone as well as they think they should have gone. And if they are unhappy, then they want others to be equally unhappy.

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  40. Jc says:

    RCP had 2012 at 48.8 to 48.1 right before the election. Actual results were 51.1 to 47.2

    The debates should be interesting – Will not be 10 other people up there eating up time and Donald throwing out zingers. This is one on one serious time. I personally hope DT inserts his foot in his mouth enough times for some people to realize it is reality time folks, time to ante up and kick in for the best person for the job. Joking time is over

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  41. Kari Q says:

    @dmichael:

    Actually, there’s movement in several polls. Trump’s lead in the ridiculously inaccurate LA Times poll narrowed by two points; the Morning Consult poll from yesterday showed improvement for Clinton, and the Ipsos Reuters is showing some rebound for her, as well. Now this poll shows her with a comfortable lead.

    I suspect the race will look different by the end of the week than it does right now.

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  42. James Pearce says:

    @Thor thormussen:

    Both things are true.

    Nah, the first statement is some stay woke BS that was instantly negated by your second statement.

    Hilarious.

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  43. Just 'nutha ig'rant cracker says:

    @Pete S:

    I still don’t understand why, if Republicans believe the country really supports them, they need to engage in voter suppression to have a chance?

    Voter suppression is as much about local issues as it is about national ones. The Presidency is just the grand prize.

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  44. Thor thormussen says:

    Nah, the first statement is some stay woke BS that was instantly negated by your second statement.

    Hilarious.

    The first statement was a generalization. The second statement was a particular item.

    Most people don’t have trouble with those concepts.

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  45. Grumpy Realist says:

    @Scott: it’s the bucket-of-crabs mentality, written nation-wide.

    I guess Americans will have to learn the hard way not to fall for a con man.

    Just remember, guys: as soon as the top scientists and engineers decide to emigrate to another country, stick a fork in her. The US will be DONE. The conservatives can cut as many taxes as they want and the trad-cons can pass as many anti-abortion anti-gay pro-Christianity laws and regs as they want–neither are going to rescue the US economy after you’ve lost the momentum on keeping up your science and technology.

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  46. Thor thormussen says:

    Just remember, guys: as soon as the top scientists and engineers decide to emigrate to another country, stick a fork in her. The US will be DONE.

    That was the premise of a really shitty SF novel. The novel was so bad that one dude wrote 180 blog posts explaining the biggest problems with it.

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  47. Thor thormussen says:

    BTW, if you read Atlas Shrugged and came away with a vague feeling that maaaaybe it was a little unrealistic, that extensive review is funny. AS is a trainwreck. She can’t even make her Extreme Libertarianism make sense in the book-world she has complete control over.

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  48. An Interested Party says:

    Surely, you see how that is divisive and otherizing?

    Indeed, and all the Deplorables have to do to fix that is to stop thinking of blacks, Hispanics, gays, etc. in such negative ways…

    But people do recover from seizures that fast, and some wear cool Zeiss Z1 blue lenses like Hillary does if they are photosensitive in the cause of their seizures.

    Ohhhhh, conspiracy time! Tell me, is your hat made of Reynolds Wrap or some generic brand…

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  49. Liberal Capitalist says:

    For me, the first chart really reminds me of the “Uncanny Valley” effect.

    “Uncanny Valley” is a term that relates to robots. We like vacuum cleaners, robotic pets, and even some android-type generic devices.

    However, if they look too much like a human, then we get creeped-out. They become too close… but not close enough. and we want no part of that, on a deep emotional level.

    So that creeped-out feeling is the uncanny valley.

    In aesthetics the uncanny valley is the hypothesis that human replicas that appear almost but not exactly like real human beings elicit feelings of eeriness and revulsion among some observers. Valley denotes a dip in the human observer’s affinity for the replica, a relation that otherwise increases with the replica’s human likeness.

    ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley )

    The chart tracks Trump’ “Uncanny Valley” effect.

    When people think that he has no chance, they are willing to respond in polls: Yeah, I would vote for Trump!

    But as soon as it starts to look like he may have a chance, and Trumps chance climb upward, more people realize teh potential impact, get creeped-out, sober up, and change their views.

    Trump polling – eeriness and revulsion.

    Pretty well sums it up.

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  50. grumpy realist says:

    @Thor thormussen: Ummm…I was thinking more along the lines of (top scientists leaving US and going to country X) + (country X really ramping up their science and technology efforts.) ==> outcompeting US, which has decided not to worry that much about science and technology anymore because “someone else can always develop it.”

    Or are you thinking that WWII would have turned out the same had the US not received a HUUGE number of scientists fleeing Nazi-occupied Europe?

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  51. Thor thormussen says:

    grumpy, i was just being grumpy. I actually agree with you, I’ve just been reading through Adam Lee’s hysterical blog posts and overreacted.

    BTW, Farenthold’s new info released this morning basically exposes the Trump Foundation as an ongoing, active tax fraud. Wonder if our esteemed hosts will care?

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  52. gVOR08 says:

    @Pete S:

    I still don’t understand why, if Republicans believe the country really supports them, they need to engage in voter suppression to have a chance?

    I expect that was for rhetorical effect. They know damn well the country doesn’t support them. The only way they’ve been able to win is by lying to the rubes. That was becoming marginal, so they went in for vote suppression. And now the rubes are in revolt. Tiniest violin.

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  53. James Pearce says:

    @Thor thormussen:

    The first statement was a generalization.

    Yes, it was. Which is why it’s funny to hear you say “it’s true!”

    No, it’s not true, and furthermore, generalizations about people based on their race and sex are, well, racist and sexist.

    I mean, your civilization-saving coalition will not contain just “Black and Hispanic people, mostly women.” It will also contain angry white men.

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  54. MikeSJ says:

    @Jen:

    Meanwhile, the Trump Foundation has now been exposed as having paid out lawsuit settlements, further evidence of illegal self-dealing.

    Jen,

    In defense of Trump, who clearly is stealing from his so called charity, (odd thing to do since he’s a zillionaire) is the fact there are lots of questions and investigations of the Clinton Foundation so that makes them pretty much even-steven.

    Hillary also failed to share details about her walking pneumonia with the press…add it all up and factor in IOKIYAR and I can’t help but conclude that Hillary really needs to apologize for being so divisive.

    Anything else I can explain?

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  55. Thor thormussen says:

    Sorry for your situation, James.

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  56. grumpy realist says:

    @Thor thormussen: The most elegant criticism I’ve seen so far of Atlas Shrugged is, of course, from Bob the Angry Flower.

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  57. the Q says:

    Geez, what a shock. The second most despised nominee in polling history losing ground to a lunatic. Who could have thunk it? Only about 13 million Democratic voters for Bernie.

    She is a 2 minute hacking cough spasm during the debates away from ignominious defeat.

    So in 2008 swing voters went for “change” and away from a much more qualified candidate in McCain because they didn’t want an establishment D.C. type. Hence, the first African American President and we all felt great as a nation.

    Those same swing voters want “change” and they will vote for a much less qualified candidate again, since they don’t want the ultimate corporate 25 year D.C. establishment figure and some of you feel those same voters are delusional. Not at all.

    The real delusional folk are the Hillary neolibs who wanted the coronation and a fait accompli nomination without seriously counting the obvious flaws of the candidate who polled WORSE against Trump than did Bernie, and now reality is reflecting those polls. So, some of you loons who sputter that Bernie wouldn’t have a chance are equally delusional.

    Sorry, fellow Dems, not going to let you off the hook regarding your easy condescension and derision of the voters – no doubt reflecting the mindset of your nominee.

    Trump is a joke and the fact that Hillary isn’t whipping him is clearly the fault, not of white male high school graduates, but rather the Dem party leaders who “rigged” the system as much as possible in giving Hillary a huge leg up on the competition.

    Its a win/win election…Hillary wins, great. Hillary loses, even better as we can finally kick out of the party the last remnants of the horribly corrupt 80s/90s DLC sellouts. The captives of Wall st, big pharma, insurance, copyright/intellectual property owners and big AG.

    You see, the people are sick of the above special interests running the Congress and have zero confidence that the candidate who took in 750k in Goldman $$$$ and won’t release the transcripts is hardly the “change” candidate.

    Only the die hard stubborn head up their azz neo lib Hillary supporter can possibly keep to the mantra that she is a better nominee against Trump than Bernie would have been.

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  58. C. Clavin says:

    @MikeSJ:

    the fact there are lots of questions and investigations of the Clinton Foundation so that makes them pretty much even-steven.

    You’re over-stating a couple of faux controversies with the Clinton Foundation.
    If you think it’s even-steven then you don’t understand the stories…which showed the opposite of wrong-doing…that the Clinton State Department didn’t do anything inappropriate.

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  59. SKI says:

    @the Q:

    I know I shouldn’t respond to the trolls but it boggles my mind how non-thinking someone would have to be to think that Sanders would be a stronger candidate than Clinton when (a) he couldn’t beat Clinton and (b) ran to her left.

    In what universe would a candidate less mainstream do better with a more moderate electorate?

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  60. MarkedMan says:

    @Jc:

    I personally hope DT inserts his foot in his mouth enough times for some people to realize it is reality time folks, time to ante up and kick in for the best person for the job. Joking time is over

    FWIW, I just googled “Who won the Palin Biden debate” and headlines such as “Palin beat expectations” and “Palin back on track” came up. I have no illusions. I think the Trump headlines will be much the same. Republicans are simply held to a much much lower standard then Democrats by both the press and the public.

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  61. SC_Birdflyte says:

    @JKB: On the contrary, I was diagnosed with walking pneumonia in 1994; with prescription medication and a day or two of bed rest, I was back to full speed.

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  62. Jen says:

    @C. Clavin: I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that was tongue-in-cheek.

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  63. Thor thormussen says:

    I know I shouldn’t respond to the trolls but it boggles my mind how non-thinking someone would have to be to think that Sanders would be a stronger candidate than Clinton when (a) he couldn’t beat Clinton and (b) ran to her left.

    In what universe would a candidate less mainstream do better with a more moderate electorate?

    You know how they say if you go too far to the extremes, you actually loop around to the other side? The Q says the leftist version, and someone–I forget names–does the same thing from the RWNJ POV, saying republicans only lost because they weren’t conservative enough.

    It’s the same illogical argument, done by opposite types of kooks.

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  64. James Pearce says:

    @Thor thormussen:

    Sorry for your situation, James.

    “My situation?” The one where progressive racists come take away my privilege?

    That ain’t nobody‘s situation, dude.

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  65. gVOR08 says:

    @MarkedMan:

    Republicans are simply held to a much much lower standard then Democrats by both the press and the public.

    True. If Trump manages to not drool on his oversize tie, much off the press will say he looked presidential. IOKIYAR. What the GOPs in other circumstances bitch about as “the soft bigotry of low expectations”.

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  66. the Q says:

    SKI, the biggest slurper on here. Hey pal, just join the Republicans will ya?

    Let me make it easy for you. People want change. This is a change election. Same as 2008. Same as 2000. Same as 1992. Same as 1980. Same as 1976. Same as 1968. Same as 1960. Same as 1952. Same as 1932.

    So, in each case, the outsider, the “need to get the country going again” candidate usually wins. Now, SKI, in your delusional world, that of course means Hillary. To the rest of us, it was Bernie.

    In your delusional world, there weren’t any debates scheduled by Debbie Wasserman Embarrassment on a Friday night at 3 AM in Guam. In your delusional world there weren’t these locked in super delegates. In your delusional world, there weren’t polls pitting Trump v Bernie showing Bernie winning in much wider margins than Hillary. Surely you can google can’t you.

    In short, sellout rationalizers like you almost make me want Trump to win so we can clean the Democratic Augean stable of the bullshitt corporatists who insist on shoving the clearly compromised corrupt Clinton down our throats.

    So please stop with your redundant Bernie can’t win vs Trump when YOUR candidate is on the verge of doing just that in reality. You don’t have a magic crystal ball foretelling Bernie couldn’t win. You choose to pull that out of your azz and deny the polls that clearly stated otherwise. But we will never know for sure.

    One thing we do know for sure is that Hillary will never change her spots and the electorate knows it. And the Dems may well blow this thing by backing the wrong nominee.

    And if and when she does fail, I will blame folks like YOU. Not a white high school grad who doesn’t know better.

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  67. MikeSJ says:

    @the Q:

    Jesus. Bernie would be at least 20 points behind Trump if he was the nominee.

    Raising taxes on the middle class and replacing their health care with a government program? He’d be slaughtered over that.

    His crackpot, borderline disgusting writings from the 70’s? That would be talked about 24-7 on the radio. Parents would be afraid to have their children near Bernie when Rush and Hannity were finished with him.

    They’d dig up “witnesses” who would swear Bernie was chanting “Death to the Yankee” when he was on his Kiss a Commie’s Ass tour with Ortega.

    Oh Yeah. “Honeymoon in Russia” would go over good. It’s not technically true but if you think the Republicans wouldn’t run with that, well, I can get you a great deal on a bridge I happen to own.

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  68. the Q says:

    Really, reading the Dems in denial on here attacking me, who has been a Democrat forever is simply ironic. And I welcome the derision.

    But thanks to you stalwart middle of the road corporate Dems, the wingnuts have captured more State houses in history, more Senate seats in history, more Congressional Representatives in history, yet dolts like SKI sure have the winning strategy don’t they.

    With phuk ups like you neo Dems, who need enemies. You have allowed the slow undoing of decades of hard fought progressive ideals by backing the very moderate, pro business leaders who have made the GOP landslide possible. And when rightfully called out on it (show me where I am in error when it comes to election results other than for POTUS), you all go into paroxysms of condescension and denial.

    Hopefully the younger 20/30s cohort are seeing the hypocrisy and will force change as the boomers slowly fade out.

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  69. MikeSJ says:

    @C. Clavin:

    Trump is actually stealing from his charity, the one he uses other peoples money to fund. They have actually evidence in the form of checks showing the stealing.

    BUT Hillary has “shadows” and “clouds” and “appearances” and I even understand David Brooks is concerned. Their are reports that more than one Villager has gone into a tizzy over Hillary’s potential skullduggery…

    Yep, exactly the same.

    Poor David Brooks. My God, where’s your compassion???

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  70. the Q says:

    Mike SJ, out of touch elitist. Google the polls and nowhere did Bernie lose by 20. In fact it was quite the opposite. So. please stop with the Bernie would lose all you Hillary-nistas. Its fantasy. You’re doing your Hannity/Rush/dipschitt making things up imitation.

    Maybe instead of talking about email servers, the corrupt CGI, the lies about the ever changing nature of Hllary’s health. The schmoozing with moguls in Martha’s Vineyard, the huge negatives of our candidate, we would instead be talking about crushing tuition debt, the failures of Obamacare, the huge wealth gap, the need to raise taxes, the infrastructure investments that must take place. Instead its Hillary’s blue stroke glasses and her ability to alienate just about everyone – even the press.

    MikeSJ, you think voters are too stupid to make up their own minds and look down on them as easily swayed by Nixonian duplicity. Again, you folks are a clone of your nominee.

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  71. the Q says:

    PS, and don’t justify Hillary’s error in judgement by pointing out Powell’s emails or juxtapose Trumps charity with the CGI etc.

    Two phuc ups don’t make a right, unless of course you support Hilary.

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  72. MikeSJ says:

    @the Q:

    Google the polls and nowhere did Bernie lose by 20. In fact it was quite the opposite. So. please stop with the Bernie would lose all you Hillary-nistas.

    You realize the Republicans were not campaigning against him when he was up in the polls?

    Tell me again how well McGovern did?

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  73. the Q says:

    1972 was not a change election slurper.

    Also, while the GOP wasn’t attacking Bernie, the opposite is also true. Let me channel you now,

    “Without the huge embarrassing negatives, the constant scandal, the establishment corporate ties, the Clinton fatigue and assorted CGI scandals, Sanders, the Democratic party nominee was able to focus solely on Trumps insanity without the distraction of a Hillary hangover. With the spotlight shining squarely on Trumps mad utterances and inconsistent positions instead of the myriad problems a Clinton candidacy would have posed, Bernie is up by double digits on his clearly unpopular opponent.”

    I just cut your balls off with that one.

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  74. the Q says:

    1972 was not a change election slurper.

    Also, while the GOP wasn’t attacking Bernie, the opposite is also true. Let me channel you now,

    “Without the huge embarrassing negatives, the constant scandal, the establishment corporate ties, the Clinton fatigue and assorted CGI scandals, Sanders, the Democratic party nominee was able to focus solely on Trumps insanity without the distraction of a Hillary hangover. With the spotlight shining squarely on Trumps mad utterances and inconsistent positions instead of the myriad problems a Clinton candidacy would have posed, Bernie is up by double digits on his clearly unpopular opponent.”

    I just cut your balls off with that one.

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  75. Kari Q says:

    @MikeSJ:

    In fairness, Nixon is far more honest and likeable than Trump.

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  76. MikeSJ says:

    @the Q:

    You are making a classic mistake. Because Hillary is a flawed candidate you somehow believe that somehow that makes Bernie a better candidate. He isn’t. People chose between the two and picked Hilary knowing full well she had problems.

    Here’s the hard part for you Q…Bernie’s problems are worse.

    Also, ease up on the physical threats. They make you sound like a kook.

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  77. the Q says:

    Mike, what is with you? You are totally guilty of the same thing. You keep with the meme, taken out of your azz, that Bernie couldn’t win, when there is absolutely NOTHING to substantiate your flatulence other than your own flatulence.

    I have polls showing you are an misinformed with that opinion of “he can’t win” but according to the polls, they clearly stated otherwise in head to head match ups, Those same polls showed a close race if Hillary got the nom and its happening.

    You keep harping on Bernie can’t win as if it is scripture. Its just you jacking off to your own conclusions. Stop with that stupid comment ad nauseum.

    Just like in 2008, people want change and that is why Hillary was the worst choice. Because she is flawed with huge negatives (but wait, in your mind, she is the cleanest candidate ever, no matter what the polls show because you know everything) and thats why Trump may win. What don’t you get? You’re blinded by your own righteousness.

    We Bernie Dem socialists aren’t going quietly into that good night.

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  78. An Interested Party says:

    …we would instead be talking about crushing tuition debt, the failures of Obamacare, the huge wealth gap, the need to raise taxes, the infrastructure investments that must take place.

    Hillary has talked about tuition debt, the wealth gap, the need to raise taxes, and infrastructure investments…granted, in some of that, she was prodded along by Sanders, and good for him for doing that, but at least she has talked about these things…but this magical notion that Sanders could have somehow won the general election and pushed all these grand plans is ridiculous…and no amount of frothing about Hillary’s shortcomings will change that…oh, and calling people “slurpers” and “shills” for Hillary will not change any of these facts either…

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  79. Bob@Youngstown says:

    @the Q: Take it outside

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  80. Tony W says:

    @An Interested Party: This. America has to be dragged kicking and screaming into each modern era. The country is very religious and very conservative by any worldwide standard, and those folks will always hold us back from achieving the social victories that other countries long ago won.

    With the exception of healthcare I’m not persuaded that’s a bad thing. France is hardly a model of business productivity and I enjoy being competitive and hungry and successful. America has a great tradition of strong corporate success and it’s fun to be a part of that.

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  81. Hal_10000 says:

    As I said, our political system has trouble dealing with someone who is as brazen and unapologetic a liar as Donald Trump. We’re used to the little lies and exaggerations. We’re used to politicians who will lie on occasion or about a specific issue. But someone who just makes it up as he goes is baffling the establishment.

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  82. HarvardLaw92 says:

    Yet again, for the learning impaired …

    We do not elect presidents in this country by popular vote.

    Obama led Romney by less than 1 point – 0.7% – heading into 2012

    He won the actual election – the electoral one – 332 to 206. A 23.4% margin of victory.

    Clinton’s “lead” over Trump using the same standard is almost double what Obama’s was in 2012.

    There is no horserace. Stop trying to create one.

    Or maybe start offering up projections broken down by electoral vote jurisdiction instead of these essentially meaningless national snapshots?

    Just a suggestion …

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  83. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @the Q:

    that Bernie couldn’t win, when there is absolutely NOTHING to substantiate your flatulence other than your own flatulence.

    Please.. He couldn’t even convince Democrats to choose him over Clinton.

    He lost. He’ll never be president. Stop whining about your dream being dashed against the rocks already …

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  84. Just 'nutha ig'rant cracker says:

    @the Q: @the Q: Hasn’t the question of whether Bernie could win been rendered moot by the fact that he didn’t win?

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  85. Kylopod says:

    @the Q:

    So in 2008 swing voters went for “change”…. Those same swing voters want “change” and they will vote for a much less qualified candidate again

    Obama’s “change” message resonated at a time when the country was mired in two hapless wars and the worst economic crisis since the Depression. Nothing like that is occurring today. Furthermore, Trump’s entire message is in many ways a backlash against the very sort of “change” that Obama represented, not a continuation of it.

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  86. Grewgills says:

    Shorter Q; damn boomers! get off my lawn!!1!

    Boy the way Glenn Miller played
    Songs that made the Hit Parade.
    Guys like us we had it made,
    Those were the days.

    And you knew who you were then,
    Girls were girls and men were men,
    Mister we could use a man
    Like Herbert Hoover FDR again.

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  87. Todd says:

    I’m of two minds on this. I think people on the left like Q, who are still rooting for Hillary Clinton to lose the general election are (to be totally blunt) short-sighted morons. That being said, if by some chance (which for the record I still think is very unlikely) Donald Trump is sworn in as the 45th President next January, it will be almost entirely due to the fact that the Democrats themselves nominated such a flawed, unpopular candidate as Hillary Clinton.

    p.s. My difference with those Bernie voters who are still “anti-Hillary” is that I never thought she was a “bad” person, or would make a “bad” President (just the opposite actually, I think she’ll be good at the job if she can get elected). My opposition was always due to the fact that she is a weak, flawed, perpetually unpopular candidate.

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  88. Todd says:

    Also, there’s no sense debating the counter-factual of how Sanders might have done instead. He’s not the nominee, he’s not going to be President.

    I’m still of the opinion that the turning point for Democrats happened in May of 2015 when Beau Biden died. Had that not happened, I think Vice-President Biden would have gotten into the race and been seen as a credible alternative to Clinton when her email issues emerged … and I think it would be much harder to imagine (than it is with Sanders) a scenario where he wouldn’t be much further ahead of Donald Trump right now had he been the nominee.

    All that being said, since Clinton is the nominee, and the only chance we have of keeping Donald Trump out of the White House, I’ll continue to do all I can (including hope like hell) that she wins in November.

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  89. Jen says:

    @Todd:

    An aside that I’ve been pondering. Biden is 73. Sanders is 74. Clinton is 68, soon to be 69. Trump is 70.

    I’m not sure if it’s a reflection that as longevity increases we as a country are more amenable to older candidates, or if it’s just a quirk of this cycle, but that’s not a young crew, especially if one wants to hold the office for 8 years.

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  90. Todd says:

    @Jen:

    I agree. But in that respect, the Democrats appear (at least on the surface) to be in a bit more trouble. Say what you will about his performance in this primary, but I think we haven’t heard the last of Marco Rubio on the Republican side. I’m not sure there is any (relatively) young, up and coming Democrat with a similar level of national prominence.

    This past primary, and even the veepstakes afterwards on the Dem side was probably evidence of that.

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  91. PJ says:

    @MikeSJ:

    Oh Yeah. “Honeymoon in Russia” would go over good. It’s not technically true but if you think the Republicans wouldn’t run with that, well, I can get you a great deal on a bridge I happen to own.

    Sanders, or any Democrat, would not have been able to attack Trump on his ties to Putin if Sanders had been the nominee.

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  92. wr says:

    @Todd: “I’m not sure there is any (relatively) young, up and coming Democrat with a similar level of national prominence.”

    Look to California. In two years, Gavin Newsome will be governor, and Kamala Harris will be two years into her first senate term…

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  93. Jen says:

    @Todd: Agreed.

    And I think add Cong. Adam Kinzinger to the Republican list. Every time I’ve seen him on CNN, he’s been poised, in command of facts, and comes across as smart and reasonable–I think he’s one to watch. He’s quite young still (I think he’s 38), but in 8 or so years…

    On the Democratic side, many of the more prominent national figures are edging up there in age. Warren had a great day yesterday (reinforcing my belief that she is *exactly* in the right spot), but she’s 67. Sherrod Brown is 63. I’m sure I’m overlooking some people, but it really feels to me like the Dems need to build their bench, substantially. It also hurts that there are so few Democratic governors.

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  94. Todd says:

    @PJ: Again, stating upfront that this debate is silly … and also, that I’ve said I don’t think Sanders would have been an effective President if elected … I think that it’s certainly valid to postulate some obvious areas where Republicans could have effectively attacked Senator Sanders. However, it’s a bit more of a stretch to try to make a case that he would have been (at this point) as unpopular as Hillary Clinton .. or that there isn’t at least a fairly reasonable chance that he’d be doing at least as good (or better) against Donald Trump.

    In the end, after some thought, I’m glad he didn’t get the nomination. For the Democrat’s long-term prospects (assuming they win in November), it’s probably better that young progressives are mad at Hillary Clinton for not doing enough (exactly as they expect), rather than being faced with the stark reality of how little a President Sanders would have been able to accomplish.

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  95. Kylopod says:

    @Jen:

    I’m not sure if it’s a reflection that as longevity increases we as a country are more amenable to older candidates, or if it’s just a quirk of this cycle, but that’s not a young crew

    It’s actually more a reflection of who didn’t run. A lot of people seem to forget there was a score of conventional Democrats who declined to enter the race. These included:

    Andrew Cuomo
    Deval Patrick
    Kirsten Gillibrand
    Tim Kaine
    Evan Bayh
    Sherrod Brown
    Elizabeth Warren
    Cory Booker
    etc., etc.

    They made their decisions around 2013 and 2014, at a time when Hillary Clinton was riding high in the polls. Because this process was almost invisible, all most pundits saw in the end was Hillary Clinton and a small group of niche candidates who were weird, obscure, and/or old, and this led to the myth that the Dems had a “weak bench” compared with the GOP, where a lot of standard-issue elected officials actually ran.

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  96. bookdragon says:

    @Todd: Walker is a putz and will probably be indited on something by 2020. That makes Rubio the main young guy with a national reputation and his wishy-washyness wrt Trump will likely come back to bite him if he runs in 2020. (Cruz might technically qualify, but he looks more and more like grandpa Munster every time I see him, so it’s hard to think of him as a young).

    Others have mentioned some names, but I note for the Dem side Tammy Duckworth and both Castros are missing from the list so far, as is Joseph Kennedy. Also Martin Heinrich.

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  97. Jen says:

    @Kylopod: A point of clarification on my part–I meant a weak bench going forward. As I noted above, at 63 and 67, respectively, Brown and Warren are a bit above what I’m thinking of when I think “next generation of Democratic leadership.”

    Point well taken on the list of names you posted though–Deval Patrick and Cory Booker both should have occurred to me.

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  98. Kylopod says:

    @Jen: Gotcha. But my overall point still applies: people have this way of not noticing potential future presidential contenders until they actually run. I got my list from Wikipedia’s article on potential and actual Democratic candidates in the 2016 cycle. To see what sorts of figures are available in future races, I’d recommend looking at a list of current and recent Senators and governors.

    Remember, Democrats have had a tendency in the last 40 some years to nominate candidates of relative obscurity. The last three Democratic presidents–Obama, Clinton, and Carter–were virtual unknowns nationally four years before reaching the White House. Even John Kerry, who was somewhat prominent in 2004, had never run for president before, and he wouldn’t have popped into most people’s heads a cycle earlier as the next nominee.

    To a surprising number of political junkies, no politician seems like presidential material until the moment they actually run. This mindset creates a blind spot in considering how big the pool really is.

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  99. bookdragon says:

    Based on the pure sweet turnabout here


    Dems Hijack IRS Impeachment Hearing With Skittles And Trump Taxes

    I also put forward Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-Ill.) as a rising Dem.

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  100. the Q says:

    Todd, for the record, I don’t want a trump Presidency, so the moron remark must refer to others.

    As for the other comments, again it proves the point that the modern dem libs are really 1960s Republicans.

    I find it fascinating that not one of you clueless dips on here EVER argue my point that the GOP right now has never been more powerful as they have a record number of state houses, Senators and congresspeople under their moniker. What say you sellouts?

    But its funny that outside of race/gay issues, you idiots are much to the RIGHT of previous Dems, hence you nitwits have presided over the slaughter of progressive ideals due to your support of such wretched candidates like Hillary.

    So, again, please one of you, just take responsibility over the destruction of my party at all levels other than POTUS at the hands of the wingnut morons. And how the GOP hegemony has set this country back 30 years.

    Argue that incontrovertible fact – you POS losers who argue so forcefully for esoteric BS, but won’t cop to the fact that the GOP has waxed you over your limp responses to the GOP challenge with disastrous results for the working masses.

    But most on here seem to be candy azz middle of the road corporatists masquerading as liberals just like the Clinton gang.

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  101. Kylopod says:

    @the Q: I take it that you’d probably agree with the following assessment of Clinton, in a quote from a book I read:

    “I know the truth and the truth is you have deceived the working man…and favored the big business and huge corporations and let the poor working man go starving, or go to Hell.”

    Oops, I lied! The above quote isn’t a reference to Clinton. It was written in the 1930s by a follower of Charles Coughlin and was addressed to Franklin D. Roosevelt.

    Some things never change, I guess.

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  102. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @the Q:

    “Your” party doesn’t exist anywhere but in your mind, and perhaps a few smoke filled coffee houses filled with the equally disaffected. The closest we’ve ever come to your ideal was under Roosevelt, and that only required a worldwide economic collapse to make it temporarily viable. The second that prosperity returned, it began to die. Truthfully, the only thing that kept the Democratic Party alive at all during the post war period was its choice to turn a blind eye to Southern racism / segregation in exchange for Southern voting blocs. Cull them from the equation and it would have died far sooner than it inevitably did.

    Republicans control so many state houses for one simple reason – they implicitly understand politics at the retail level and they play wedge issues to people’s biases and fears much better than we do. In an electorate with far more than its share of emotionally driven morons, their shpiel simply sells better than ours does. You spend so much time shouting at the rain because you simply don’t get that simple concept – in a contest in this electorate between ideas and fearmongering, ideas will lose pretty much f’king always.

    Choose to keep being a bitter toiler if you like – just know that it doesn’t make you noble. It simply makes you a fool.

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  103. Todd says:

    @the Q:

    As for the other comments, again it proves the point that the modern dem libs are really 1960s Republicans.

    I’ll cop to that. Prior to Barack Obama, my favorite President during my lifetime was George H.W. Bush. If you put me in a time machine and made me an adult back when I was born (1969), there is a good chance I’d be a Republican in that time. In today’s day and age, no way no how. I do share some of your criticisms of the Democratic party … I got beat up on this comments section for months for expressing a few of them. But ultimately, for all their faults, the Democratic party is really the only vehicle that grownups have to jump on. Perhaps that’s why some far-left progressives refuse to get on board … many have never grown up. I watch some of my “Jill not Hill” friend throw their little hissy fits about how horrible Hillary Clinton is, and I almost literally get flashbacks to when my kids were 2 years and had a meltdown over something like not getting exactly what they wanted for dinner.

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  104. Jen says:

    OT, but this is really sort of incredible:

    Trump’s campaign paid his businesses $8.2 million

    We have his small-dollar donors, many of whom likely live paycheck-to-paycheck, sending in money which he’s using to make himself richer. And no one is raising an eyebrow.

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  105. Jen says:

    Also OT, but good lord, are there really people this dumb? The fact that she’s speaking on behalf of the organization, saying things like this:

    An aide to members of Donald Trump’s family on Wednesday defended Trump’s personal use of funds from his foundation, arguing that some third party donations should count as Trump’s money.

    “A lot of times Mr. Trump will give a speech somewhere or he’ll raise money in some way and he asks that that entity, instead of cutting a personal check to him, cut it to his charity,” Lynne Patton told the Des Moines Register. “That’s money that otherwise would’ve been in his personal account, right?”

    “So when he cuts a check from his foundation for let’s say, St. Jude, it is his money,” Patton, the senior assistant three of Trump’s children and the vice president of Eric Trump’s charity, continued. “No ifs, ands or ways about it.”

    I’m totally flabbergasted.

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  106. SKI says:

    @Jen: I have no doubt that he/they really do think of it that way. It also is tax fraud. Farenthold’s work may not impact the election but it will impact Donald Trump’s legal issues, especially with respect to taxes.

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